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#51
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Aerophotos wrote:
Gordon yet again please show fit on anything top secret since ww2 been released from Black Projects etc with UFO technologies.. problem is you cant... the US govt is too paranoid and scared if the world finds out What would happen if the world found out? If "Opportunity" or "Spriit" or "Beagle2" get a picture of a little green man looking back at them from a hole in the Martian surface, must the public be denied this particular snapshot? One more addition to the vault under Area 51? What if one of these research landers make the mistake of drilling a test hole through the little guy's head??!!! The first known interplanetary war? A fine argument for humans exploring space rather than robots! SMH |
#52
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![]() "The Enlightenment" wrote in message ... "Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ... "robert arndt" wrote in message om... Well said. Three cheers for the guy with a brain! I'll give you another example comparison between US and German tech from 1945. Had the war gone on just until the fall of 1945 the German soldier would have had: a new M44 stalhelm, M44 Liebermuster camouflage (which contained carbon and IR defeating dyes), the STG-45 assault rifle, the Pzf 150 AT weapon, and Nipolit formed disc grenades. Reliant on horse drawn vehicles for resupply. The British were reliant on Americans for resupply. Of food mainly and of course we had to import our oil but much of it came from the fields in Iraq and Iran. The reality is that Germany was a resource poor nation that had only forrest and coal and horse drawn logistics was all that was possible withou access to cheap steel and oil. They made steel the same way we did with coke , limestone and iron ore and Germany had access to cheap high grade iron ore from Scandinavia. Britain had to reopen old low grade mines such as those around Skelton. Germany actually had access to MUCH more steel than Britain did since it controlled the industries of France , Belgium and Czechoslovakia but it managed to use them so poorly it could match Britain in production of weapons and the UK also managed to build an Ocean going fleet. In the meantime the British were Lording it up secure in the monopoly and control they had of the the rerources of their colonies oil, rubber, tin, manganese, nickel, chromium, tungsten, steel etc. Rubber originally came from Malaya but with that in Japanese hands alternate supplies came from Brazil, an ally Tin , manganese, nickel etc came from many sources including the USA, South Africa, Canada and the USSR Steel was home produced using British coal ,limestone and iron ore. They forced boer familes intio concentration camps where they died of disease and poor food to secure yet more colonies, That was of course 40 years before the period we are discussing. By 1940 South Africa was moving towards independence they helped Turks to invade Bulgaria and Just to swipe at the Russians who were heling their christian allies and all sorts of excuses to cut down anyone that might one day rival them by fair means. Hardly, the Turks invaded Bulgaria in 1396 The Crimean war was occasioned by the Russian invasion of Bulgaria Do try and read a history book now and then The most shocking thing for most British soldiers when they closed the Falaise gap was to discover that most German army units were totally reliant on horse and cart to deliver supplies from the railhead. Every British Infantry division had been motorised since 1945 and they also realised that while the SS might be well supplied with weapons and material the average Wermacht soldier had to walk into battle on his own two legs, was armed with the 5 shot bolt action Karabiner 98k rifle of 1898 vintage and WW1 designed hand grenades. The Panzershreck was of course inspired by the Bazooka The Bazooka was a miserable weapon, panzerschreck adressed its weaknesses. Allied soldiers in Normany had to use captured panzerschreks and panzerfausts becuase the bazooka and the infinetely more miserable PIAT were so ineffective. They were certainly decent weapons but the Piat and bazooka could and did kill most German tanks including the Panther The Panzerfaust was however a very effective weapon that owes nothing to the bazooka. In its ultimate form the reloadable Panzerfaust 250 it was the basis of the RPG-7. A weapon more memorable and usefull than the clumsy, bulky and awkward bazooka. Memorable if you survided firing it with its max range of around 30 m which was raised to 60m in later versions Had they managed to survive into 1945 without being Nuked the Germans would have been facing large numbers of M-26 and Centurion battle tanks which were superior to anything they had The more advanced panther tanks and their new schmalturm turrets had gyro-stabalised turrets, 88mm cannon and stereoscopic range finders so they would have matched the newer UK and USA tanks. That turns out to be incorrect, the Centurion with its stabilised 17 pounder main gun was designed to be proof against the German 88 and considerably outmatched the Soviet tanks it met in combat in Korea. It still serves in the IDF today. The M-26 with its 90mm Gun performed well against German tanks towards the end of the war and was supplemented later that year by the M-45 with its 105mm gun. Both were produced in considerable quantity and fleets of the new US and British jet fighters. Germany was on the wrong side of the arms production curve from 1942 onwards. There was no other way to go than down. You've been around long enough to know that German arms production peaked in 1944. A long way behind the prduction of weapons in the USA Britain and the USSR all of which were still climbing in 1945 The Germans and allies were well matched intellectually. The Germans lagged in some areas and lead in some. In the end they, and the axis, were defeated by far superior resources: the USA, UK, Australia, Canada, NZ, Soviet Union. The Germans lacked a clue when it came to prioritising development and were seriously deficient in production. The fact remains that Britain alone outproduced Germany in several key areas including aircraft production as early as 1940. Keith |
#53
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![]() "Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ... "The Enlightenment" wrote in message ... "Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ... "robert arndt" wrote in message om... Well said. Three cheers for the guy with a brain! I'll give you another example comparison between US and German tech from 1945. Had the war gone on just until the fall of 1945 the German soldier would have had: a new M44 stalhelm, M44 Liebermuster camouflage (which contained carbon and IR defeating dyes), the STG-45 assault rifle, the Pzf 150 AT weapon, and Nipolit formed disc grenades. Reliant on horse drawn vehicles for resupply. The British were reliant on Americans for resupply. Of food mainly and of course we had to import our oil but much of it came from the fields in Iraq and Iran. The reality is that Germany was a resource poor nation that had only forrest and coal and horse drawn logistics was all that was possible withou access to cheap steel and oil. They made steel the same way we did with coke , limestone and iron ore and Germany had access to cheap high grade iron ore from Scandinavia. Britain had to reopen old low grade mines such as those around Skelton. Germany actually had access to MUCH more steel than Britain did since it controlled the industries of France , Belgium and Czechoslovakia but it managed to use them so poorly it could match Britain in production of weapons and This should read couldnt match Britain the UK also managed to build an Ocean going fleet. In the meantime the British were Lording it up secure in the monopoly and control they had of the the rerources of their colonies oil, rubber, tin, manganese, nickel, chromium, tungsten, steel etc. Rubber originally came from Malaya but with that in Japanese hands alternate supplies came from Brazil, an ally Tin , manganese, nickel etc came from many sources including the USA, South Africa, Canada and the USSR Steel was home produced using British coal ,limestone and iron ore. They forced boer familes intio concentration camps where they died of disease and poor food to secure yet more colonies, That was of course 40 years before the period we are discussing. By 1940 South Africa was moving towards independence they helped Turks to invade Bulgaria and Just to swipe at the Russians who were heling their christian allies and all sorts of excuses to cut down anyone that might one day rival them by fair means. Hardly, the Turks invaded Bulgaria in 1396 The Crimean war was occasioned by the Russian invasion of Bulgaria Do try and read a history book now and then The most shocking thing for most British soldiers when they closed the Falaise gap was to discover that most German army units were totally reliant on horse and cart to deliver supplies from the railhead. Every British Infantry division had been motorised since 1945 and they also realised that while the SS might be well supplied with weapons and material the average Wermacht soldier had to walk into battle on his own two legs, was armed with the 5 shot bolt action Karabiner 98k rifle of 1898 vintage and WW1 designed hand grenades. The Panzershreck was of course inspired by the Bazooka The Bazooka was a miserable weapon, panzerschreck adressed its weaknesses. Allied soldiers in Normany had to use captured panzerschreks and panzerfausts becuase the bazooka and the infinetely more miserable PIAT were so ineffective. They were certainly decent weapons but the Piat and bazooka could and did kill most German tanks including the Panther The Panzerfaust was however a very effective weapon that owes nothing to the bazooka. In its ultimate form the reloadable Panzerfaust 250 it was the basis of the RPG-7. A weapon more memorable and usefull than the clumsy, bulky and awkward bazooka. Memorable if you survided firing it with its max range of around 30 m which was raised to 60m in later versions Had they managed to survive into 1945 without being Nuked the Germans would have been facing large numbers of M-26 and Centurion battle tanks which were superior to anything they had The more advanced panther tanks and their new schmalturm turrets had gyro-stabalised turrets, 88mm cannon and stereoscopic range finders so they would have matched the newer UK and USA tanks. That turns out to be incorrect, the Centurion with its stabilised 17 pounder main gun was designed to be proof against the German 88 and considerably outmatched the Soviet tanks it met in combat in Korea. It still serves in the IDF today. The M-26 with its 90mm Gun performed well against German tanks towards the end of the war and was supplemented later that year by the M-45 with its 105mm gun. Both were produced in considerable quantity and fleets of the new US and British jet fighters. Germany was on the wrong side of the arms production curve from 1942 onwards. There was no other way to go than down. You've been around long enough to know that German arms production peaked in 1944. A long way behind the prduction of weapons in the USA Britain and the USSR all of which were still climbing in 1945 The Germans and allies were well matched intellectually. The Germans lagged in some areas and lead in some. In the end they, and the axis, were defeated by far superior resources: the USA, UK, Australia, Canada, NZ, Soviet Union. The Germans lacked a clue when it came to prioritising development and were seriously deficient in production. The fact remains that Britain alone outproduced Germany in several key areas including aircraft production as early as 1940. Keith |
#54
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Remember that Area 51 guy Bob Lazar? how come the CIA and co made him
shut up? if he was a loony they wouldn't care but they made him be quiet or else... so explain it Bob Lazar was so full of ****. No one ever made him shut up. He has zero credibility among those who watch black projects and Groom Lake. The only ones who still think anything of him, are conspiracy kooks. Its like saying Groom Lake is controlled by the CIA, which it is... SS could of easily controlled any UFO programs in germany. No, it is not. Much of the Range is DOE, and technically I believe Groom Lake to be a detachment of Edwards. But yes, I am sure some CIA testing does go on there. But its not their base. Well how come all the secrets of ww2 and since are still locked away with people not allowed to speak???? Name one.. Ron Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4) |
#55
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Bernardz wrote in message news:MPG.1a9caa84d27558209898fd@news...
Vergeltungswaffen, just Vril-7. Meanwhile Thule came up with a more advanced Triebwerk that utilized Coler's free energy machine, a Van deGraf generator, a mercury sphere, and spherical levitators. This engine was installed in the large Haunebu craft that flew the Atlantic and made trips to an area Hitler knew would be safe from Allied bombing, New Schwabenland in Antartica. U-boats carried technicians and scientists to a base there, Number 211, via an undersea trench that stretched the entire way through what was know formerly as Queen Maud Land. Base 211 was carved into a cave complex similar to Nordhausen and supplied by transport subs, components of which even the Type XXVI were taken. SS Antartic troops maintained the base. Never heard of a U-boat base being given a number. No Type XXVI was ever built in the war. Work only started on it, late in the war so how is it suppose to be available in 1939? Nor is SS Antartic listed in a complete list of every SS-Divisionen formed during WWII. Base 211 is often referenced as a code-name for the entire Antarctic program and disc connection. It is a very unusual German designation. Try "Station 211", it was sometimes referred to as that. And why WOULD a secret SS battalion be listed among the combat divisions? I did not just check combat divisions! I looked at all. I also looked at the units that we have little references and that *may* have existed. Nothing like it. By the way German military records are very good. Generally so... except for those destroyed on purpose and of course those captured by the Allies and compartmentalized by various intelligence agencies. Generally if it was an SS battalion it would be so designated eg SS-Ausbildungs-Battalion or SS-Wirtschafts-Battalion but not always. The SS E-IV technical branch is barely known along with the Black Sun SS religious Order, the DHvSS, and the SS archeological unit that went to South America and Tibet... among other places searching for sacred relics. It was listed as SS Tibet mission which would make sense in this context in other words it would not a military unit as such at all. You really need to skip basic SS history and read up on the occult aspects of the Third Reich before opening your mouth. You probably aren't even aware that the Nazi Party (NSDAP) originated from the occult Thule/Vril Gesellschafts from way back to 1917. Before that Thule came from the German Order (aka Order of Teutons) of 1912 and was also known as the "Luminous Lodge"- directly connected to the Illuminati. I think we know of the Thule society here. That's what makes all of this hard to deal with; the entire Third Reich cannot be seperated from the occult, its symbolism, its mission, and its plans for ultimate control over the planet. Most people don't even recognize the swastika (Hakenkreuz) for what it symbolizes- the black sun wheel that Thule and Vril worshipped. A dark violet sun with dark powers. Vril is also the shortened version of Vri-il "Like God". At the heart of all this is the worship of pure evil. Hitler had little interest in this sort of stuff. Sorry to make you look absolutely stupid but Hitler and the senior Nazi leadership were Thule members. Hitler believed in the "Hollow Earth" theory, alien Aryans from Aldebaran, the Black Sun, etc... and had his own psychics that guided his war-making decisions. You are completely wrong there. The ultimate goal of Hitler and the Nazis was to repopulate the earth with Aryan superhumans through eugenics and rebuild Berlin into some form of Nazi occult mecca. BTW, Hitler DID seize one occult object in 1938- the Spear of Destiny from Vienna. The myth was that whomever was at power and possessed the Spear (that pierced Christ's side) would rule the world. When US troops recovered the Spear on April 30, 1945 Hitler comitted suicide within the hour. It was Gen. Patton that restored the Spear to Vienna where it still resides in a museum. Anyway, Base 211 is interesting to speculate on but no one could reach it on land. Only a submarine could get there if the location was known. I wonder if the US or USSR ever tried to find it in the trench? The Germans probably mined the hell out of the area. You cannot find what does not exist. Admirable Byrd sent a military task force to find it in 1947 (the first available antarctic summer) and ended up losing men and aircraft, being turned back after mere weeks when provision for fighting had been for 8 months. Rob Rob |
#57
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"Eunometic" wrote in message
om... Bernardz wrote in message news:MPG.1a9b8d33930402ad9898f6@news... In article , says... Some say the technology came from an alien UFO that crashed near Freiberg in 1936 and was taken to Himmler's castle at Wewelsberg, reverse engineered. Nevertheless, Thule and Vril continued development of these RFZ (RundFlugZeug) with models 1-6 up to 1939. By the start of the war Vril had their own designs of which the often-quoted V-7 is mentioned. This is a mislabel as it is not part of the The designation V-1, V-2 etc was not used till late in the war. The designation V was for "Versuchs" the German word for experimental. Most german protduction aircraft had up to 30-100 V series aircraft This is incorrect. V as it related to the V-1 buzz bomb and V-2 rocket was for "Vergeileitung" (sp?) which translantes into "Vengeance." Meant to retaliate for bombing raids on Hamburg, Berlin, etc. The V-designation was applied to the V-1 cruise missile, the V-2 rocket, and the V-3 cannon project which was never completed. There were other guided missiles, bombs, etc. that were developed but they did not have V-designations. (The missiles used to sink the Italian battleship Roma, for isntance, or the Wasserfall surface to air missile concept.) Before recieving the "V-2" designation, Dr. Von Braun's rocket was known as the A-4. As for the UFO stuff, it is nonsense. The proponents invariably post some sort of cock and bull talem then ask people to prove it wrong. The onus of proof is on them, and they try to avoid that because they have none. I mean, if I were a German strategic type in 1945 and I had some super-craft, I'd darn sure want to use it. Maybe against, say, the Russians? I mean they would have had a lot of motivation there. DEP |
#58
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"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
... "robert arndt" wrote in message om... Well said. Three cheers for the guy with a brain! I'll give you another example comparison between US and German tech from 1945. Had the war gone on just until the fall of 1945 the German soldier would have had: a new M44 stalhelm, M44 Liebermuster camouflage (which contained carbon and IR defeating dyes), the STG-45 assault rifle, the Pzf 150 AT weapon, and Nipolit formed disc grenades. Reliant on horse drawn vehicles for resupply. Very true - and the US Garand was a good gun. The M3 Grease Gun and Tommy gun were no slouches for urban fighting. And the M-1 Carbine was a sort of step towards what we now call an "assault rifle." The British of course had the Bren, Sten, and Enfield. ISTR the Germans also had G43 rifles, in 7.92 Mauser, but it would have been Volkssturm vs. US Army, British Army units that had fought since North Africa, and the Red Army that had started the drive at Stalingrad. The most shocking thing for most British soldiers when they closed the Falaise gap was to discover that most German army units were totally reliant on horse and cart to deliver supplies from the railhead. Every British Infantry division had been motorised since 1945 and they also realised that while the SS might be well supplied with weapons and material the average Wermacht soldier had to walk into battle on his own two legs, was armed with the 5 shot bolt action Karabiner 98k rifle of 1898 vintage and WW1 designed hand grenades. The Panzershreck was of course inspired by the Bazooka True. The Allies had taken mechanized resupply to levels Guderian would have loved. Red Ball express and all. Plus the massive aerial resupply abilities. Had they managed to survive into 1945 without being Nuked the Germans would have been facing large numbers of M-26 and Centurion battle tanks which were superior to anything they had and fleets of the new US and British jet fighters. Germany was on the wrong side of the arms production curve from 1942 onwards. There was no other way to go than down. True, and while Germany's leadership was considering Hitler Youth as pilots for those jets, US and British pilots with experience equipped with Meteors and P-80 Shooting Stars (Or Bell P-59s) would have had the edge in experience. There weren't a lot of guys like Adolf Galland left flying by the end of the war. I seem to recall that the Luftwaffe never ran out of planes. Pilots were another matter. Keith |
#59
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"M. Santoro" wrote in message
om... Except, of course, for the fact that the US along with its allies won the war. Then again, the US possessed overwhelming technological superiority in Vietnam, and still lost. So what's your point? Mine is that being "technologically" superior doesn't win wars. If war is an extension of politics by other (more violent) means (as per Clausewitzl, Lenin and Mao), it's will that matters. With that in mind, the lessons of both WWII and Vietnam have already been written. The lessons of ongoing conflicts have yet to be discerned. I'd also argue that no nation is superior "in all areas." Certainly not when we're talking about a conflict that ended nearly 60 years ago, and in favor of the technologically "inferior" side. When discussing the merits or deficiencies of US military power, please choose a more current subject. There are, after all, plenty more current episodes to choose from. - M.S. The Allies were not technically inferior. Look at the Russian Stalin Organ, Soviet T-34 Tank, US B-29 Bomber, Allied High-Test gasoline, Allied Carrier design and aircraft, the advanced concept of the Sten as far as manufacturing, and of course the most advanced weapon of the war - the Atomic Bomb. The Allies were far from technically inferior. |
#60
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