Presidential TFR @ Kill Devil Hills

Everything can be analyzed on a continuium. Yes, President Bush did server
in the National Guard. There is some question about his motives, hence the
skepticism. On the other hand, he (intelligently) does not aggressively
promote his service for publicity. Whitehouse.gov doesn't even seem to
mention it in the biography page.

As an interesting aside, George McGovern, who ran against Nixon (and was
trounced, of course) on a strong anti-war platform during Vietnam, was a war
hero during WWII. During his campaign he expressley refused to allow his
military service to be discussed, or, more importantly, compared to Nixon's.

See Stephen Ambrose's The Wild Blue.

Michael




"Mutts" wrote in message
...
Since when is piloting an F-102 something without risk and danger?
It deserves respect regardless of your opinion of the mans
political idealogies. Who is one person to judge anothers persons
quality of service? Just being President puts you in danger every day.

"Michael 182" wrote in message
news:JsHDb.566151$Tr4.1535566@attbi_s03...

Everything can be analyzed on a continuium. Yes, President Bush did server
in the National Guard. There is some question about his motives, hence the
skepticism.


Oh, I'm pretty sure he joined the Guard for the same reason many others did
in that era; to reduce the chances of toting a rifle through Vietnam. I
have no problem with that. The Johnson administration chose a policy of not
sending Guard units to Vietnam, why shouldn't people take advantage of that
policy if they can?

In article et,


Oh, I'm pretty sure he joined the Guard for the same reason many others did
in that era; to reduce the chances of toting a rifle through Vietnam. I
have no problem with that. The Johnson administration chose a policy of not
sending Guard units to Vietnam, why shouldn't people take advantage of that
policy if they can?


You are mis-informed about he National Guard in Vietnam, see below link and
text.
I doubt Bush would have been sent however, The F-102 was not exactly
cutting edge and Bush was not a high time pilot ready for combat.
Im sure he would have went if ordered to however.

http://www.ngaus.org/ngmagazine/sidebar600.asp

The Air National Guard in Vietnam
(June 2000) - Air National Guard units began flying supply missions to Vietnam
in 1965, and the Air Guard was mobilized twice during the Vietnam War.

Eleven squadrons were called up in January 1968 in response to the seizing of
the U.S. Navy ship Pueblo by North Korea, and two tactical fighter squadrons
were, the 166th (Ohio) and the 127th (Kansas) were sent to South Korea.

In May 1968 one aeromedical airservice group and two tactical fighter groups
were federalized.

Four tactical fighter squadrons--the 120th (Colorado), 174th (Iowa), 188th
(New Mexico), and 136th (New York)--deployed to Vietnam. And although not a
Guard unit, the Guard can claim credit for a fifth squadron, the 3755th: 85
percent of this tactical fighter squadron's personnel were Air Guard
volunteers from New Jersey and the District of Columbia.

The Air Force commander in Vietnam, testifying before a Senate committee,
summed up the combat record of these five squadrons:

"I had ... five F-100 Air National Guard squadrons ... Those were the five
best F-100 squadrons in the field. The aircrews were a little older, but they
were more experienced, and the maintenance people were also more experienced
than the regular units. They had done the same work on the weapon system for
years, and they had stability that a regular unit doesn't have."

In addition, a large number of combat-veteran active Air Force pilots joined
the Air National Guard after Vietnam. This group includes Shepperd and Maj.
Gen. E. Gordon Stump, Michigan adjutant general and NGAUS president.

"Mutts" wrote in message
...

You are mis-informed about he National Guard in Vietnam, see below link
and
text.


No, I'm not misinformed about the Guard in Vietnam. I'm aware that some
Guard and Air National Guard units did serve there. Quite a few units were
called up during the Pueblo crisis, a few went to Vietnam and saw combat.
I've written about that several times in these forums over the years. But
the policy was that Guard units would not serve in Vietnam and with few
exceptions that policy was followed.



I doubt Bush would have been sent however, The F-102 was not exactly
cutting edge and Bush was not a high time pilot ready for combat.
Im sure he would have went if ordered to however.


The F-102 was the primary interceptor used in Vietnam until about 1970.
Many were flown by ANG volunteers, I believe that program was called Palace
Alert. Bush volunteered for it, but was rejected for low flying time.

I doubt Bush would have been sent however, The F-102 was not exactly
cutting edge and Bush was not a high time pilot ready for combat.
Im sure he would have went if ordered to however.

The F-102 was an interceptor only (rockets in a weapons bay--no guns).
A few went to SE Asia but had almost no role to play. I believe that
most 102 drivers who volunteered were transitioned to other aircraft.
None was ordered to go.

More Guard and Reserve pilots served in Vietnam than I believed at the
time. Sometimes this was units being sent over (the New Hampshire Air
Guard was mobilized every December to fly Christmas mail to SE Asia).
Most often it was individuals volunteering and occasionally being
called to active duty.
'
Bush presumably had as many hours as the average pilot, during his two
years on active duty. In any event, pilots transitioned to other a/c
typically went to a training course (the death rate on the graduates
of these courses was particularly high, sometimes 50 percent--see Ed
Rasimus, When Thunder Rolled www.warbirdforum.com/thunder.htm -- one
of the best combat memoirs I have ever read.) Afterward, during the
several years he was an active member of the Air Guard, his flying
time would have been much less, and in the last year or 18 months it
was evidently non-existent.

Still, his service was longer and more intense than mine, and I
suspect longer and more intense than that of 90 percent of the posters
to this board.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

No problem with his being in the Air Guard. Too bad he didn't do it
honorably.

--
Kevin McCue
KRYN
'47 Luscombe 8E
Rans S-17 (for sale)




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"Kevin McCue" wrote in message
...

No problem with his being in the Air Guard. Too bad he didn't do it
honorably.


What do you find dishonorable about Guard service?

In article JsHDb.566151$Tr4.1535566@attbi_s03,
As an interesting aside, George McGovern, who ran against Nixon (and was
trounced, of course) on a strong anti-war platform during Vietnam, was a war
hero during WWII. During his campaign he expressley refused to allow his
military service to be discussed, or, more importantly, compared to Nixon's.

Bushs father did not want his WWII service to be used for political advantage
during his campaign. He recently hosted a show about B-25 pilots in Burma.
To this day I still surprise people with the fact that both Bushs were pilots.
A lot of people really havent heard it before.

In article JsHDb.566151$Tr4.1535566@attbi_s03, "Michael 182"
wrote:

Everything can be analyzed on a continuium. Yes, President Bush did
server
in the National Guard. There is some question about his motives, hence
the
skepticism.

Several of my uncles joined rather than waiting to be drafted.
I guess you want to question their motives...

--
Bob Noel

Maybe I was unclear. I said there was some skepticism, which there certainly
is. I believe if you look at my previous post I was supporting Bush, which,
by the way, I almost never do on any other issue. If that wasn't clear I
wrote it poorly. Given that I never served in the military I am in no
position, nor am I questioning Bush's service. Or anyone else's.

Michael


"Bob Noel" wrote in message
...
In article JsHDb.566151$Tr4.1535566@attbi_s03, "Michael 182"
wrote:

Everything can be analyzed on a continuium. Yes, President Bush did
server
in the National Guard. There is some question about his motives, hence
the
skepticism.

Several of my uncles joined rather than waiting to be drafted.
I guess you want to question their motives...

--
Bob Noel