Removing Ethanol from Gas?

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 02:20:14 -0400, Roger
wrote:

Depends on how you look at it. A good size solar set up requires a
hefty set of batteries. Some of the really good batteries are quite
toxic. Will they be able to recondition them or have to dispose of
them? I don't know.

What you posted next -- about the envionrmental impact of
manufacturing solar panels is valid. But about the need for
batteries, see:

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/P...rticleID=13242

Don

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 06:58:49 GMT, Don Tuite
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 02:20:14 -0400, Roger
wrote:

Depends on how you look at it. A good size solar set up requires a
hefty set of batteries. Some of the really good batteries are quite
toxic. Will they be able to recondition them or have to dispose of
them? I don't know.

What you posted next -- about the envionrmental impact of
manufacturing solar panels is valid. But about the need for
batteries, see:

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/P...rticleID=13242

I'd forgotten some areas are able to generate enough power and have
this option.

He's a long way from Michigan and we may see that some day, but no
real incentives to install solar that I know of plus Michigan is a
cloudy 43'37" N ~ 85W. Here it' would take many years to pay off a
system that size. If I was lucky I could expect to come out with maybe
a third the power generated per year that he sees, but I'd bet it'd be
far less than that due to clouds and average length of the day.
Then we'd have maintenance caused by storms plus low output due to
snow and ice covering the collectors.

AT a rounded up 8 cents per KWh his system would save me $415 dollars
for the year figuring 1/3rd the power generated. Unfortunately we
don't have near the sunshine they have in Ca in either hours or
strength.

Also, I'd want a system that could operate in a "stand alone" mode as
I've put well over 100 hours on a 9500 Watt generator in the last 6
years due to power outages. To be piratical most of this area would
require batteries or we'd be at the mercy of the power grid. Plus I'd
need some method of storing any excess generated and IF I could get
the power company go to along it'd be great as every little bit does
help. OTOH considering our power usage the generator would be far
cheaper than batteries.

Also we pay a graduated rate based on amount, not time of day.
Our highest rate is about 7 cents per KWH.

If I go by the figures in that article our average electrical use in
July last year was 22KWh per day. (We cut that to 11 KWh even with
this year's heat wave) With the much shorter days coming up the
electrical use will go up considerably as will the gas. The first day
of Summer the sun rises well before 6:00 AM and There is plenty of
light to fly by at close to 10 PM. Twilight ends near 11:00 PM. Our
days are something like 3 hours longer than down south that time of
year. In the Winter the sun rises around 8:00 AM and sets around 5:00
PM. Today was 14h and 6m long while tomorrow will be 2m 35s shorter
with the largest change coming the first day of Fall.

However, Solar may not be the answer up here, but wind is a strong
viable alternative, or could if we had the electrical grid capacity to
handle it. The state of Wisconsin agreed to purchase the excess power
from a wind farm that wasn't used. Unfortunately they found out just
how inadequate the electrical grid is in that area when it cost them
many millions of dollars. Inland in this area the wind is too
unpredictable, but there are nearby areas where it works, or would
work well. We have almost the ideal average, but they get that
average between very windy days and calm days.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Don
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 04:09:28 -0400, "Roger (K8RI)"
wrote:

He's a long way from Michigan and we may see that some day, but no
real incentives to install solar that I know of plus Michigan is a
cloudy 43'37" N ~ 85W. Here it' would take many years to pay off a
system that size.

Agreed. Here's US map showing how much sun everyone around the
country gets:

http://projectsol.aps.com/solar/data_insolation.asp

Don (NR7X, FWIW)

On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:31:17 GMT, Don Tuite
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 04:09:28 -0400, "Roger (K8RI)"
wrote:

He's a long way from Michigan and we may see that some day, but no
real incentives to install solar that I know of plus Michigan is a
cloudy 43'37" N ~ 85W. Here it' would take many years to pay off a
system that size.

Agreed. Here's US map showing how much sun everyone around the
country gets:

http://projectsol.aps.com/solar/data_insolation.asp

We don't receive enough sunlight to even be included in their
calculator. :-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Don (NR7X, FWIW)
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Jim Macklin wrote:
ECON 101

AvGas is available at X price
MoGas is available at 3/4X price
Cost to re-refine MoGas Y (why is a good choice of letter)
Cost to repair damaged engine (each) $20,000.

Cost to repair damaged fuel tanks, plumbing, pumps and
seals, unknown.

Cost of FAA violation of regulations, certificate
suspension, a lot
Cost of uninsured aircraft when your insurance is cancelled,
priceless.


Seeing large percentage of fleet GROUNDED when avgas goes away:

????????????

Avgas is on borrowed time.

Years ago, decades even, I remember the idea that aircraft were going
to have to operate on one of two fuels, automotive gasoline or Jet A.
And someone said that aircraft fuel systems needed to be built
impervious to alcohols, anilines, aromatics, or any other Bad Thing
thet might conceivably wind up in automotive gasoline.

The Rutanoids were running fuel on primary composite structure and I
said then, "You better make sure _no_ fuel can attack it". Oh no,
nothing but avgas was ever going in there. They wish they'd listened
now.

The diesels-primarily the (autoderivative!) Thielert/Centurion-are
sawing a hole in Lycoming's future, in case you hadn't noticed. Flight
schools over here and everyone in Europe is lining up for STC
conversions. Avgas will be no longer available in Europe in a short few
years and over here in a couple after that.

The Brazilians have had some success running some aircraft on straight
ethanol, and if one could get someone to build conformal pressure
tankage LP Gas might be possible-P&W radial powered helos have flown on
it. But otherwise, it's car gas, or convert to diesel or turbine.

The way that the fuel price is going, a large percentage of U.S. GA
fleet will ground themselves in about 5 years.

It's a sad future indeed, but GA as we know it here is going away very
soon. It'll be largely replaced by ultralights/LSAs burning mogas.
The 100LL Bonanza/Mooney/Cirrus flyers will be able to hold out for a
while buying increasingly expensive 100LL, but they'll give up
eventaully, or buy a turboprop if they have the money.

The light twin fuel hogs will be the first to go.


Bret Ludwig wrote:


Seeing large percentage of fleet GROUNDED when avgas goes away:

????????????

Avgas is on borrowed time.

"M" wrote in message
oups.com...

The way that the fuel price is going, a large percentage of U.S. GA
fleet will ground themselves in about 5 years.

It's a sad future indeed, but GA as we know it here is going away very
soon. It'll be largely replaced by ultralights/LSAs burning mogas.
The 100LL Bonanza/Mooney/Cirrus flyers will be able to hold out for a
while buying increasingly expensive 100LL, but they'll give up
eventaully, or buy a turboprop if they have the money.

The light twin fuel hogs will be the first to go.

Funny, the same thing has been said since aviation began. Read some
magazine articles from the '20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s and
you read the same story over and over again.

On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:55:40 GMT, "Dave Stadt"
wrote:


"M" wrote in message
roups.com...

The way that the fuel price is going, a large percentage of U.S. GA
fleet will ground themselves in about 5 years.

It's a sad future indeed, but GA as we know it here is going away very
soon. It'll be largely replaced by ultralights/LSAs burning mogas.
The 100LL Bonanza/Mooney/Cirrus flyers will be able to hold out for a
while buying increasingly expensive 100LL, but they'll give up

The Jet A prices will be right up there too.
We might get regulated out of existence, but I doubt the price of gas
will do it as that is the cheapest part of flying.

I do think we'll see a lot of Diesel conversions once they get the HP
up in the 250 to 350 range. I'd even spring for one in the Deb as
it's getting close to major time any way.

How about a turbo charged diesel in the G-III? 350 HP would be just
about right if they/I could shoehorn it in. Problem is that damn turbo
take sup a *lot* of room.

eventaully, or buy a turboprop if they have the money.

Unless you fly in the flight levels you are looking a minimum of 30
gallons per hour. More like 40 or 50. That'd be about $200 an hour
for fuel to run a 4 or 6 place single engine at 10,000 or under where
most of us like to fly.


The light twin fuel hogs will be the first to go.

Funny, the same thing has been said since aviation began. Read some
magazine articles from the '20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s and
you read the same story over and over again.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com



Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Roger" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:55:40 GMT, "Dave Stadt"
wrote:


"M" wrote in message
groups.com...

The way that the fuel price is going, a large percentage of U.S. GA
fleet will ground themselves in about 5 years.

It's a sad future indeed, but GA as we know it here is going away very
soon. It'll be largely replaced by ultralights/LSAs burning mogas.
The 100LL Bonanza/Mooney/Cirrus flyers will be able to hold out for a
while buying increasingly expensive 100LL, but they'll give up

The Jet A prices will be right up there too.
We might get regulated out of existence, but I doubt the price of gas
will do it as that is the cheapest part of flying.

I do think we'll see a lot of Diesel conversions once they get the HP
up in the 250 to 350 range. I'd even spring for one in the Deb as
it's getting close to major time any way.

I stopped in the Lycoming tent at OSH and noticed they had a diesel on
display. In talking to one of the reps he stated the engine is nearly
developed but no one is interested in it so they pretty much put it on the
shelf waiting for a customer. Have also heard that there are prop problems
due to the power pulses developed by diesel engines.

The Jet A prices will be right up there too.

Jet A will be there. Maybe avgas won't.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.