East River turning radius

Mxsmanic wrote:


No, you haven't. It's impossible to hold altitude in a 90° bank.

Sorry, you are wrong. You are presuming that the wings are the only
source of lift on an aircraft. As the original poster said, there
were airshow acts that use the side of the fuselage coupled with a
LOT of power to maintain knifedge level flight.

There's more to aerodynamics than Microsoft would lend you to beleive.

In article ,
Ron Natalie wrote:

Sorry, you are wrong. You are presuming that the wings are the only
source of lift on an aircraft. As the original poster said, there
were airshow acts that use the side of the fuselage coupled with a
LOT of power to maintain knifedge level flight.

Q: "How do you get a pig to fly?"
A: "Strap a big enough engine on it"

Ron Natalie writes:

Sorry, you are wrong. You are presuming that the wings are the only
source of lift on an aircraft.

Wings are the only things under discussion in such theoretical
scenarios.

As the original poster said, there
were airshow acts that use the side of the fuselage coupled with a
LOT of power to maintain knifedge level flight.

I'm sure you could use helium balloons, too, but that isn't an
automatic assumption because it is not universally true.

There's more to aerodynamics than Microsoft would lend you
to beleive.

I don't see any connection with Microsoft here.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

mike regish wrote:
It actually possible to hold altitude in a straight line with a 90 degree
bank. I know because I've done it in a real plane.

I've done very close to 90 degree turns in a Decathlon. I wanted to see what
6 Gs felt like. That's about all we pulled and I hit a full 90 degrees
momentarily several times. I was within a few degrees of 90 for the entire
turn.

Yes, folks forget that the wings aren't the only source of lift.

Matt

PPL-A (Canada) wrote:

Mxsmanic wrote:

d&tm writes:


I should add that this calulation assumes all the lift is coming from the
wing , but that theory would imply that an aircraft cant hold altitude in a
90 degree bank, and of course we have all seen aerobatic aircraft do this.

No, you haven't. It's impossible to hold altitude in a 90° bank. In
fact, it's impossible to execute a coordinated turn with a 90° bank.
A 90° bank requires infinite speed, because the acceleration vector
would have to be perpendicular to gravity, which is never possible as
long as gravity is non-zero. With both vertical and horizontal
non-zero components, the net acceleration vector can never be
completely horizontal or vertical. You can eliminate the non-zero
horizontal component in level flight, but you cannot eliminate the
force of gravity, so a 0° "bank" (i.e., level flight) is perfectly
possible, but a 90° bank is not.

You can come infinitely close to 90°, but you can never reach it, in
any type of aircraft. In an aircraft that can withstand 9 Gs, you can
reach slightly less than an 84° bank, but no more.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.


I belive you have neglected to take into account that many aircraft
wings incorporate positive dihedral (as well as wash-out {although a
very few have wash-in}), which would have the effect, even while the
aircraft is in a 90º banked condition, of producing non-90º lift
vectors from the airfoils. The upward wing will still have a lift
vector that is not perpendicular to the weight vector, and depending on
the thrust available (or airspeed upon establishing the 90º banked
attitude), will allow a 90º banked turn for a period of time without
loss of altitude.


If the fuselage is at 90 degrees, the dihedral makes no difference as
the slight upward vector from the bottom wing is offset by the negative
vector from the upper wing and thus the wing lift is still zero for all
practical purposes. However, you get lift from the fuselage and also
from the thrust vector being inclined upwards as well if top rudder is
applied.

Matt

"Mxsmanic" wrote in
Ron Natalie writes:

Sorry, you are wrong. You are presuming that the wings are the only
source of lift on an aircraft.

Wings are the only things under discussion in such theoretical
scenarios.

No. Whether planes can fly a knife edge is. And, you didn't understand how
this is done.

As the original poster said, there
were airshow acts that use the side of the fuselage coupled with a
LOT of power to maintain knifedge level flight.

I'm sure you could use helium balloons, too, but that isn't an
automatic assumption because it is not universally true.

It isn't even a suggestion.

Did you lose every argument as a child? Is that why you live in a fantasy
world where computer simulation defines your reality?

moo

"Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote\

What is a "duster turn"?

I'm guessing that is what he is calling a turn that you have done a "few" times,
while crop dusting in fixed wings. g
--
Jim in NC

"Chris" wrote in message
...

"d&tm" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
Ah... Well... I just through some random numbers in there... Of course,
one
would not try and pull a 57G turn as cool as it sounds...

Thanks for the lesson! I learned something new today...


The calculator is correct by my reckoning. 80mph and 89 degree bank
gives 8 ft radius turning circle which is correct in theory. it
sounds
ridiculous but really the 89 degree angle of bank is what is
ridiculous
.
such a turn if possible would pull 57 g. the calculation is not that
difficult. radius= v squared / g tan ( bank angle)
terry

I should add that this calulation assumes all the lift is coming from
the
wing , but that theory would imply that an aircraft cant hold altitude
in
a
90 degree bank, and of course we have all seen aerobatic aircraft do
this.
For this to occur the lift must be coming from the fuselage of the
aircraft
and so the equation will not be strictly correct. But for the type of
turns
that mere mortals like me will do I think it tells the story. I have
heard
guys on this group regulary mention 60 degree or 2 g turns, but in my
training steep turns were 45 degrees maximum.
terry

In the UK steep turn are defined as 60 degree turns and that is what we
are
trained to do.
I remember the first time I was flying in the US and as part of the
checkout
this young instructor asked me to do a steep turn. He made some strange
noises - I don't think he had done 60 degrees before.

I find them easier than 45 degree turns

I am actually based in Australia. I know that in the C150 which I am
guessing about 90% of GA pilots train in here, you generally need full power
to hold altitude in a 45 degree turn. With 2 people on board I doubt you
could do 60 degree turns and hold altitude, but as I said I havent tried.
terry

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ron Natalie wrote:

Sorry, you are wrong. You are presuming that the wings are the only
source of lift on an aircraft. As the original poster said, there
were airshow acts that use the side of the fuselage coupled with a
LOT of power to maintain knifedge level flight.

You gotta give the boy ( or girl?)some credit for his intelligence and
enquiring mind. But the attitude that goes with it is really something. I
just hope he sticks to flight simming and not the real thing.
terry

In article ,
"d&tm" wrote:

You gotta give the boy ( or girl?)some credit for his intelligence and
enquiring mind. But the attitude that goes with it is really something. I
just hope he sticks to flight simming and not the real thing.
terry

He wouldn't last long actually flying. He'd prove Darwin correct when the
airplane doesn't respond like it should (based on his sim experience).

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate