#1 Piston Fighter was British

On 01 Jul 2003 15:17:22 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

f course not. Equally, you'll never know the feeling of going up
against Fw 190s in an Airacobra or desperately trying to evade a Wild
Sau nightfighter over Berlin or clambering out of a landing craft in
the teeth of enemy machine-gin

You are right. Tell me about it. II want to hear it form the horses mouth. No
offense of course..

How did you learn to use the Norden? Did you design, buld and test it
yourself or did somebody else do it for you? In which case, don't
bother telling me about bomb-aiming and Norden issues, I'd rather have
it from the horses' mouth.

Gavin Bailey

--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised)
Date: 7/1/03 8:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 01 Jul 2003 15:17:22 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

f course not. Equally, you'll never know the feeling of going up
against Fw 190s in an Airacobra or desperately trying to evade a Wild
Sau nightfighter over Berlin or clambering out of a landing craft in
the teeth of enemy machine-gin

You are right. Tell me about it. II want to hear it form the horses mouth.
No
offense of course..

How did you learn to use the Norden? Did you design, buld and test it
yourself or did somebody else do it for you? In which case, don't
bother telling me about bomb-aiming and Norden issues, I'd rather have
it from the horses' mouth.

Gavin Bailey


Gee, come to think about it I never did talk much about the Norden. There seems
to be zero interest in it. Are you sure you won't reconsider killfiling me?
Please.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On 01 Jul 2003 15:59:19 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Are you sure you won't reconsider killfiling me?
Please.

Put your money where your mouth is. You claim to want to killfile me:
do so.

If you want to discuss something, talk about the "impotence" of my
relatives who were fighting the war long before you arrived on the
scene. Eight times to Berlin.

How many times did you do that?

Gavin Bailey

--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:21:49 GMT, (The Revolution
Will Not Be Televised) wrote:


If you want to discuss something, talk about the "impotence" of my
relatives who were fighting the war long before you arrived on the
scene. Eight times to Berlin.

How many times did you do that?

He sure as hell wasn't freezing the ******** off himself on artic convoys
as my maternal grandfather was.


greg



--
$ReplyAddress =~ s#\@.*$##; # Delete everything after the '@'
Alley Gator. With those hypnotic big green eyes
Alley Gator. She'll make you 'fraid 'em
She'll chew you up, ain't no lie

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 20:50:36 +0100, Greg Hennessy
wrote:

If you want to discuss something, talk about the "impotence" of my
relatives who were fighting the war long before you arrived on the
scene. Eight times to Berlin.

How many times did you do that?

He sure as hell wasn't freezing the ******** off himself on artic convoys
as my maternal grandfather was.

Funnily enough the old boy had plenty of time for other people and
their experiences, and thought his worth passing on in writing - I've
got them in front of me now, although it's a shame he didn't leave
more.

I have nothing but respect for anybody who did the Murmansk run. Did
he record anything about his experiences? Time passes and the
memories pass away as they do.

Gavin Bailey

--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised)
Date: 7/1/03 10:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 01 Jul 2003 15:59:19 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Are you sure you won't reconsider killfiling me?
Please.

Put your money where your mouth is. You claim to want to killfile me:
do so.

If you want to discuss something, talk about the "impotence" of my
relatives who were fighting the war long before you arrived on the
scene. Eight times to Berlin.

How many times did you do that?

Gavin Bailey


Now you are taking credit for what your relatires did? disgusting.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On 02 Jul 2003 02:37:48 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Now you are taking credit for what your relatires did? disgusting.

I suggest you take another look at how *you* characterised what he and
everybody else involved in fighting the war before D-Day were doing.
Let me know if you really believe your comments about him and millions
of others are appropriate or accurate.

Gavin Bailey

--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

In message , ArtKramr
writes
Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised)
How did you learn to use the Norden? Did you design, buld and test it
yourself or did somebody else do it for you? In which case, don't
bother telling me about bomb-aiming and Norden issues, I'd rather have
it from the horses' mouth.

Gee, come to think about it I never did talk much about the Norden.

I was listening...

There seems
to be zero interest in it.

It might be specialised, but some of us are interested.


Art, you and Gavin both have valuable information to share, acquired in
very different ways. I know you won't kiss and make up, but can you try
to find a way to live with your argument? I value both sources and would
hate to lose one or both.


--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: "Paul J. Adam"
Date: 7/1/03 1:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

Art, you and Gavin both have valuable information to share, acquired in
very different ways. I know you won't kiss and make up, but can you try
to find a way to live with your argument? I value both sources and would
hate to lose one or both.

Thanks for the kind words. Years ago when this NG was young it was filled with
WW II veterans of the air war over Germany. At least 2 B-17 pilots, one from
the Bloody 100th Bomb Group with incredible stories to tell. Some navigators
who had been to Ploesti in B-24's and a number of gunners from both B-24's and
B-17's. These men in relating their combat experiences were constantly and
uniforrmly attacked by a hords of wannabbees, many who had never even seen a
military aircarft much less flown in one. They were discounting what these
veterans relayed because they read somewhere that it was otherwise and they
were telling these veterans what war was "really like'. One by one the vets
left this NG in disgust.. I kept in contact with many of them and tried to
bring them back.One or two came back, but left when the wannebees struck again
time after time. But I am a different breed of altogether.. I will never be
dirven off by wannabees. Never in a million years. Many guys who have given me
the same crap over and over are now gone.I'm still here. And will be as long as
I can make it to the computer keyboard. The Luftwaffe couldn't get me. And the
wannabees don't stand a chance..

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

Snippage

| dirven off by wannabees. Never in a million years. Many guys who have
given me
| the same crap over and over are now gone.I'm still here. And will be as
long as
| I can make it to the computer keyboard. The Luftwaffe couldn't get me. And
the
| wannabees don't stand a chance..
|
| Arthur Kramer
| Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
| http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer



Hi Art and all,


As someone who appreciates all _constructive_ input, I've enjoyed most of
the messages in this thread......certainly the ones that generate light
instead of heat. Normally threads this long would have left me cold
ages ago.


The thread touches peripherally on all aspects of Usenet life, from the
freedom of speech that your constitution stipulates and that _most_ other
RAM members enjoy by default, to the simple aspects of netiquette and good
manners.


Personally, I wonder if any other generation would ever stand toe-to-toe in
a bleeding match like WWI or II as yours did. We've all become
accustomed to 'surgical' warfare with minimal casualties among our side or
the innocent bystanders, witness the protests about the civilian casualties
in OIF.


You've certainly earned the right to be heard and to exchange your opinions
with the others with a credibility that few others can match.
Sadly, there will be a day when first hand accounts are no longer available
and written histories are all that are left.

The imperative as I see it, is to
_reconcile_written_histories_with_first-hand_accounts - while we can.
The work of authors such as Ed and Gordon are aimed at their own specialist
areas of air warfare during the last 60 years.


I'm glad you're still here Art, dodging the grenades. I'm sure that in
person you're a crusty, irascible old fart - enjoy that while you can - we
do and that there are people online who will enjoy stirring you up.

Please bear in mind that people on various mountain tops can look into the
same valley and see things slightly differently.



Cheers


Dave Kearton