What First Glider to own?

Sparky,
A few years ago I made a quasi-scientific weighted chart to determine
the best glider to buy, and in your price range it's a Libelle. Very
good value, light and easy to rig. Might give it a look.


I would also recommend a Libelle:

Nearly everyone holds Libelles as beautiful and I couldn't agree more.

Light wings and easiest to rig.

Automatic control hookups except for the ailerons. Ailerons connect with
simple pins that are permanently attached on 201 Libelles. The
connections are also conveniently located and in plain sight.

Very well engineered. Not many AD's.

Very good finish quality.

Excellent climb in weak conditions.

Overall performance is good enough that you won't "outgrow" it in a
couple of seasons. Sports/Club class handicap is competitive.

My own preference is the 301 Libelle simply because the flap handle
gives me something to do with my left hand (prevents blindness on long
x-country flights), the "low" canopy looks cool, and the tailchute
impresses the chicks. However, standard Libelles handle better and are
much more plentiful.

Alternatives:

The Standard Cirrus is a real joy as well. I absolutely love the light
controls on the Cirrus.

Expensive parts or not, I would never dismiss an LS-4 if you can find
one and can afford it. There has never been a better 1st glider than an
LS-4.

A Discus would be about as good as the LS-4 for a first glider, but with
the better performance, you would keep it longer.

ASW-19's are OK, but overpriced for performance because they look sexy.
ASW-15's are is great handling since they are bascially a glass Ka-6,
but you'll outgrow one too quickly if you fly much x-country or race.

H301 Libelle #19, "WB"

I would also recommend a Libelle:

Nearly everyone holds Libelles as beautiful and I couldn't agree more.



I'll have to disagree, to some extent, with WB.

Beautiful, yes. But only in a rare time when seen from a higher
vantage point and having to twist neck to look back and down.

Really ugly when seen from below and well out in front of my typical
vantage point. :-)

And yes, the low canopy really improves the look of this classic
glider.

I'll second what others have said: Make sure you get a good trailer
with all the bits in working order. Not much sucks more than a
knuckle-busting trailer.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
LS1-d

How Dare you! ??!

Libelle is "UGLY"???? and this coming for a guy with an LS1C?????

Glass houses!
Tim )

"rlovinggood" wrote in message
...
I would also recommend a Libelle:

Nearly everyone holds Libelles as beautiful and I couldn't agree more.



I'll have to disagree, to some extent, with WB.

Beautiful, yes. But only in a rare time when seen from a higher
vantage point and having to twist neck to look back and down.

Really ugly when seen from below and well out in front of my typical
vantage point. :-)

And yes, the low canopy really improves the look of this classic
glider.

I'll second what others have said: Make sure you get a good trailer
with all the bits in working order. Not much sucks more than a
knuckle-busting trailer.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
LS1-d





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On Dec 3, 3:15 pm, "Tim Mara" wrote:
How Dare you! ??!

Libelle is "UGLY"???? and this coming for a guy with an LS1C?????

Glass houses!
Tim )

"rlovinggood" wrote in message

...



I would also recommend a Libelle:

Nearly everyone holds Libelles as beautiful and I couldn't agree more.

I'll have to disagree, to some extent, with WB.

Beautiful, yes. But only in a rare time when seen from a higher
vantage point and having to twist neck to look back and down.

Really ugly when seen from below and well out in front of my typical
vantage point. :-)

And yes, the low canopy really improves the look of this classic
glider.

I'll second what others have said: Make sure you get a good trailer
with all the bits in working order. Not much sucks more than a
knuckle-busting trailer.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
LS1-d

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signature database 5672 (20101203) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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as far as im concerned the libelle is beauty on wings. i gaggled with
a very nice 201 once while i was flying my cherokee ii. it took
everything i had not to let him outclimb me. i was impressed. i need
to sit in one to make sure that ill fit

OK, just to stoke some controversy, I'll add a contrary opinion:

There are two questions: What first glider to own, and what cheap
glider to own. These are often confused.

Unlike in many other sports the "latest and greatest" does not take
any more skill or finesse than older gliders. If you have the money,
there is no reason at all not to make your local dealer immensely
happy by ordering a modern glider, or buying one of the many excellent
used ones for sale. If you are qualified to fly a Libelle, Cirrus, or
PIK, you're qualified to fly a 27-28-29, or D2/V2.

You get easier handling and a considerable improvement in safety. All
the new gliders have better balanced controls. Winglets make a big
difference in thermals. Spin prone tips, all flying tails, small
slippery airbrakes and all that got sorted out in the 80s. The "safety
cockpit" concept really didn't begin until the late 80s and early 90s.
You also get a trailer that is much much better than earlier models.
Landing my ASW27 is much easier than landing a libelle.

(Of course new pilots should stay away from open class, tricky
gliders, and motors. Power pilots should absolutely not get a glider
with a motor in it -- they always seem to want that.)

Older gliders are lovely. Old cars are lovely. But old anything means
lots more care and maintenance. Nobody said the three most important
things to look at in an older glider: Gelcoat, Gelcoat, Gelcoat. It's
only a matter of time before that $15,000 + bill comes due. Plus rust
on the fittings, ADs, bags that leak, fittings that break, bearings
that wear out, manufacturers who don't exist/don't stock older parts,
and so on and so forth. It's a tradeoff -- save money initially, but
you will invest more time. If you don't know how to do it yourself,
you'll invest lots more repair money down the road too. If that's for
you, good. If you have the money and would rather spend time flying,
do it.

I have to disagree pretty hard with the advice here that KA6s and the
like are good gliders for new pilots to consider. KA6s are beautiful,
fragile, wooden antiques. They need lots of expert tender loving care.
It's like owning and driving a Ford Model A. Vintage and antique
flying are wonderful hobbies -- but not for a new pilot with limited
time and expertise at glider maintenance, whose main interest is in
flying.

Plus, look hard at the bottom of a KA6. It looks like a gorgeously
made wooden boat from the 1950s. Now think of your butt down there,
crashing in to something. Splinters are not a safety cockpit. When you
go for gliders this old, you're making a big tradeoff in money for
safety. Now, that's probably ok if you want to float around the
airport and enjoy your beautiful antique. Missing seatbelts are ok for
tooling around in your Ford Model A on a sunday afternoon. But if you
want to push the cross country or contest envelope, it's a much more
important consideration.

This post started with "under 20k". But where did that money limit
come from? Maybe that $20k limit isn't so hard and fast after all? I
bet it came from a perception that the cost/value tradeoff peaks at
$20k. I hope the above makes you look a little deeper.

Here's how to explain it to the spouse. Don't look at the list price
-- look at the annual cost. Gliders don't depreciate. If you buy a
glider for $20k, you'll sell it for $20k a few years from now. So a
$20k glider is really costing you the interest you'd be earning each
year. That's maybe 2 percent per year right now, so a $20k glider only
costs you $400 per year! Even if you have to borrow, home equity
loans are about 5% right now, so that $20k glider only costs $1000 per
year. The insurance and tows are going to cost more than that!

Maybe a $40k glider, meaning $800 lost interest or $2000/ year
interest cost, isn't that "expensive" after all. And with a partner
(an excellent idea for a first purchase) now we can talk about an $80k
glider! Owning a glider is, in the end, pretty cheap. Try to play
golf or go skiing on $2000 per year! (No, I'm not on the dealer
payroll!)

It is also a bad idea to buy a glider that you know you'll outgrow in
a few years. There's a lot of pain in the butt with buying and selling
gliders, setting up instruments, paying sales taxes, and so on. Spend
a bit more now, and be sure you'll be happy with it for at least 5
years. The difference in performance of the new gliders is pretty big.
That doesn't just mean you go faster, it means you stay up and go
places others can't. That "'cheap" glider will end up costing a lot if
you dump it in a year or two because you're tired of watching your
buddies go places you can't.

John Cochrane

Plenty of advice, not many real suggestions.
A Libelle was mentioned, beautiful glider, Glasflugel workmanship and
design, easiest ever to rig, slightly tight cockpit if you are well fed,
brakes not the best, need getting used to.
ASW15, same performance as Libelle, bigger cockpit, better brakes, not
quite so easy to rig.
Std Cirrus, elevator very light, apart from that very good.
ASW 19/Pegase better performance than those above, excellent gliders.
If you can find one at your price, a Discus in a Cobra trailer.
Almost as easy to rig as the Libelle, excellent performance (43), good
cockpit, quite good brakes, very easy to fly, I think some clubs used them
as first solo when they came out, but could be wrong on that. If you get
ambitious, they will carry lots of water.
BTW Mike, I had a Jantar 19 for 15 years or so, and rigged it single
handed, (preference not necessity) unless it was windy, with 3 trestles
and two dollies.
Basically you won't go far wrong with any European series production
glass glider, so get the best you can afford. I can't comment on those
made in the USA, as I know nothing about them. However general advice
would be initially, stick to 15 metres and no flaps.
Dave




At 19:05 02 December 2010, Sparkorama wrote:

I'm getting back into the sport after a long hiatus and flying in the
Boston area. I'll be putting some winter flying time in and I'm
considering buying my first glider once I'm back to comfortable solos
and my private license. (Naturally, I won't fly anything until I am
competent and ready). Any suggestions on a first glider? Because of my
price range, I realize I'll be looking at some older birds. I would say
my preferences are as follows. Under 20k, easy to fly, easy to maintain
and safe. Naturally, I'd like to see some decent glide performance,
just
thinking that some future performance would be good for keeping the
plane for some time. (currently I'm considering an IS29D2 Lark)
My club has competent instructors and the following fleet (winter flying
in only the 2-33):
1 Puchacz (two place, 30/1 performance; advanced trainer, aerobatic)
3 Blanik L-23 (two place, 30/1 performance; advanced trainer,
sightseeing)
1 Blanik L-33 solo (single place, 30/1 performance; cross-country,
sightseeing)
1 Schweitzer 1-34 (single place, 34/1 performance)
1 Pilatus B-4 (single place, 35/1 performance; cross-country,
aerobatic)
1 Schweizer 2-33A (two place, 23/1 performance; trainer)
1 Schweizer 1-26E (single place, 23/1 performance; aerobatic)
Your thoughts would be appreciated.




--
Sparkorama

"David Salmon" wrote in message
...
Plenty of advice, not many real suggestions.
A Libelle was mentioned, beautiful glider, Glasflugel workmanship and
design, easiest ever to rig, slightly tight cockpit if you are well fed,
brakes not the best, need getting used to.

All the above is true. Unfortunately the non-hinged canopy on the older
Libelles makes it difficult, perhaps impossible, for you button yourself up into
your own glider without help. Depending on where you launch from, this may or
may not be a problem for you.

Vaughn

I second the ASW 15 suggestion. Pros - They can be had for much less
than 20K, have good (but not great) performance. Easy to rig. My wings
go on much easier than most gliders I've seen. Roomy/comfortable
cockpit.

Cons - Check the cockpit payload on any you might look at. If you're
above average size you might be over max gross. The B model has a
higher max gross. Canopy does not have a hinge, it comes off
completely. Its a minor annoyance. Controls are not auto hook ups. For
some that's a deal breaker. I don't see it as a big thing. Safety
them, check them and check them again. Some have an off center tow
hook that can be an issue in a crosswind takeoff. Mine has a more
forward centerline release. They have an all-flying tail that some
people seem to not like. I don't know why. From what I've read,
twitchy pitch control on all flying tails is mostly a myth. There may
be some issue at high speeds but I rarely go more than 75-80 kts (like
I said - good but not great performance) I can't tell the difference
but I've never flown any other glass single seat glider.

Reading the above it may seem like more cons than pros but the cons
are mostly non-issues, in my opinion. Of course, its a biased opinion
since a 15 is what I own. In the "bang for the buck" category the ASW
15 and Libelle are hard to beat. If you have another $5-10K or go
partners the possibilities really open up.

There are a few Experimental Gliders with great performance bang for
the buck and are great performers.
Also Experimentals can be maintained by YOU with the help of an
aircraft mechanic for annuals.
You dont see experimentals being grounded by AD's making your
investment a complete loss like the Blanik L-13.


The Schreder HP Experiementals are a great buy. I bought my 40+ year
old HP-11 for $6,000 with a good trailer.
Its had 9 owners and they have completed Diamonds etc in them.
Its all metal and I leave it outside rigged in the blistering CA sun
and occasional rain, year round and its virtually maintenance free. L/
D ~37:1

Its durable and learning Flaps is easy and less scray than you have
heard and gives you capabilities to exceed your best expectations,
with flap assisted slow thermalling and reflex flaps for top end
speed. and full flaps to get in to incredibly small postage stamp
sized fields. I now prefer flaps to spoilers alone and I think most
people would too if they gave it a try.

Its also a rugged and durable design and will out survive a fiberglass
model with reduced maintenance required.

You should check out the HP-11, HP-14, HP-18 and RS-15 in the Schreder
line at soaridaho. com, mostly under $15K

To fly one is to become a believer in late 60's high performance
contest proven technology. Plus you can afford all those extra tows
and road trips with the money you save.

Save for the modern glass while you have fun in the Schreders and pass
along your HP when you are ready to move up....they last forever.

Ray


On Dec 2, 11:05*am, Sparkorama
wrote:
I'm getting back into the sport after a long hiatus and flying in the
Boston area. I'll be putting some winter flying time in and I'm
considering buying my first glider once I'm back to comfortable solos
and my private license. (Naturally, I won't fly anything until I am
competent and ready). Any suggestions on a first glider? Because of my
price range, I realize I'll be looking at some older birds. I would say
my preferences are as follows. Under 20k, easy to fly, easy to maintain
and safe. Naturally, I'd like to see some decent glide performance, just
thinking that some future performance would be good for keeping the
plane for some time. *(currently I'm considering an IS29D2 Lark)
My club has competent instructors and the following fleet (winter flying
in only the 2-33):
1 Puchacz (two place, 30/1 performance; advanced trainer, aerobatic)
3 Blanik L-23 (two place, 30/1 performance; advanced trainer,
sightseeing)
1 Blanik L-33 solo (single place, 30/1 performance; cross-country,
sightseeing)
1 Schweitzer 1-34 (single place, 34/1 performance)
1 Pilatus B-4 (single place, 35/1 performance; cross-country,
aerobatic)
1 Schweizer 2-33A (two place, 23/1 performance; trainer)
1 Schweizer 1-26E (single place, 23/1 performance; aerobatic)
Your thoughts would be appreciated.

--
Sparkorama

For information of the Schreder HP/RS series, check out
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://tinyurl.com/N990-6F


"jb92563" wrote in message ...

.... Snip....

The Schreder HP Experiementals are a great buy. I bought my 40+ year
old HP-11 for $6,000 with a good trailer.
Its had 9 owners and they have completed Diamonds etc in them.
Its all metal and I leave it outside rigged in the blistering CA sun
and occasional rain, year round and its virtually maintenance free. L/
D ~37:1

Its durable and learning Flaps is easy and less scray than you have
heard and gives you capabilities to exceed your best expectations,
with flap assisted slow thermalling and reflex flaps for top end
speed. and full flaps to get in to incredibly small postage stamp
sized fields. I now prefer flaps to spoilers alone and I think most
people would too if they gave it a try.

Its also a rugged and durable design and will out survive a fiberglass
model with reduced maintenance required.

You should check out the HP-11, HP-14, HP-18 and RS-15 in the Schreder
line at soaridaho. com, mostly under $15K

To fly one is to become a believer in late 60's high performance
contest proven technology. Plus you can afford all those extra tows
and road trips with the money you save.

Save for the modern glass while you have fun in the Schreders and pass
along your HP when you are ready to move up....they last forever.

Ray