Hold "as published"?

David Megginson wrote:
(K. Ari Krupnikov) writes:


I guess I was trying to ask a more general question. Forget the
context. If you are cleared direct to your destination, what point are
you cleared to?


As far as I understand, you have no clearance limit.

Sure you do, the airport. Just like when you are sitting on the ground
and get your clearance, you are cleared to the airport.


If you lose comms and cannot go VFR, then you just fly to your
destination and
shoot an approach, no holds required.

Just like normal.

David Megginson wrote:

(K. Ari Krupnikov) writes:


While it doesn't make a bit of a difference from 150 miles out, if you
reach the clearance limit and have no communication with ATC, and
reach it before your ETA, where are you going to hold? Over one of the
runway thresholds?


The IAF for your approach, I guess. In real life, do controllers
really want a 7600 holding for 15 minutes because it's ahead of its
ETA, or do they just want it safely on the ground as soon as possible
so that it stops messing up their airspace?

Land the plane.

Richard Thomas wrote:



The reason for this is Air Traffic is expecting you to arrive at the airport
at that ETA so they will have cleared the airspace in its entirity,

Not in its entirety, but we will make room for you.


expecting you to start any published instrument approach into the airport.
This is particularly relevant if your transponder has also failed... how
are Air Traffic supposed to know where you are?

Radar.

Of course if you are in VMC conditions then you'd stay in VMC and land as
soon as practicable. After landing informing Air Traffic by telephone so
they aren't any more incovenienced than they need to be.

Call me when you figure out you are NORDO and we can dispense with all
this mumbo jumbo.

"Richard Thomas" wrote:
If you are now
30 minutes ahead of schedule (great tailwind) then they may still be
clearing the approaches... if you then start an ILS approach in solid IMC,
there could be a possibility of ploughing straight into another aircraft
that they are getting onto the ground in anticipation of your arrival 30
minutes later...

How does holding at the Final Approach Fix for 30 minutes make the
situation any better?

David Megginson writes:

(K. Ari Krupnikov) writes:

While it doesn't make a bit of a difference from 150 miles out, if you
reach the clearance limit and have no communication with ATC, and
reach it before your ETA, where are you going to hold? Over one of the
runway thresholds?

The IAF for your approach, I guess.

Which one? You were never cleared for an approach, you didn't hear
"expect". There may be multiple published approaches with different
IAFs.

In real life, do controllers really want a 7600 holding for 15
minutes because it's ahead of its ETA, or do they just want it
safely on the ground as soon as possible so that it stops messing up
their airspace?

How would they know what that "as soon as possible" happens? Will they
effectively close the airport waiting for you to arrive? There might
be traffic waiting to get in or out, and nobody wants 7600's flying
into any of those. Would you hold all departures and divert all
arrivals waiting for the 7600 to make her approach "as soon as
possible"?

Ari.

"David Megginson" wrote in message
...

As far as I understand, you have no clearance limit. If you lose
comms and cannot go VFR, then you just fly to your destination and
shoot an approach, no holds required.


A proper IFR clearance always has a clearance limit.

"David Megginson" wrote in message
...

The IAF for your approach, I guess. In real life, do controllers
really want a 7600 holding for 15 minutes because it's ahead of its
ETA, or do they just want it safely on the ground as soon as possible
so that it stops messing up their airspace?


They want you on the ground, and they certainly don't want you squawking
7600 while you're putting it there.

"K. Ari Krupnikov" wrote in message
...

Which one?


Whichever one your little heart desires.



How would they know what that "as soon as possible" happens? Will they
effectively close the airport waiting for you to arrive? There might
be traffic waiting to get in or out, and nobody wants 7600's flying
into any of those. Would you hold all departures and divert all
arrivals waiting for the 7600 to make her approach "as soon as
possible"?


If you've still got a radar target you can still separate from a NORDO
aircraft. If you've got no radar then everything beneath the NORDO is
effectively shut down until it's known to be on the ground.

"Richard Thomas" wrote in message
...

Hi Steven,


Howzit goin'?



I wouldn't like to be on your aeroplane if you're not going to hold
anywhere
if you're 30 minutes early arriving at your destination with lost comms
etc... :-)


Why not?



If you are in IMC and loose communication then one should start any
available instrument approach into the destination airport at the ETA
within
the filed flight plan (ETD + Time Enroute). If you're early and its solid
IMC you hold. Simple as that.

The reason for this is Air Traffic is expecting you to arrive at the
airport
at that ETA so they will have cleared the airspace in its entirity,
expecting you to start any published instrument approach into the airport.
This is particularly relevant if your transponder has also failed... how
are Air Traffic supposed to know where you are?


I see a couple of problems with that. First, it's unlikely ATC has your
ETA. They'd only have it if you were cleared as filed and there had been no
route amendments since you departed. That's rarely the case.

Second, what bizarre failure causes me to lose both of my completely
independent transceivers, and my transponder, but leaves me fully confident
of the continued flawless operation of my other avionics?



If you arrive, lets say 30 minutes ahead of schedule, you have no comms
and
as its your very unlucky day your transponder has decided to go
unservicable. ATC have no idea where you are but as they will be
following
the FARs they'll be clearing the area for your planned ETA. If you are
now
30 minutes ahead of schedule (great tailwind) then they may still be
clearing the approaches... if you then start an ILS approach in solid
IMC,
there could be a possibility of ploughing straight into another aircraft
that they are getting onto the ground in anticipation of your arrival 30
minutes later...


So if I arrive 30 minutes early I should hold while arrival and departure
traffic fly through my holding pattern?

I'm familiar with what the FARs and the AIM say. What I say comes from 20
years experience as an air traffic controller, Center, TRACON, and tower.
You can believe what I tell you, or you can believe your fantasies, I don't
care which.

"Steven P. McNicoll" writes:

Whichever one your little heart desires.

And here I was, thinking I had people convinced I had a large heart. I
hate it when people call my bluff.

If you've still got a radar target you can still separate from a NORDO
aircraft. If you've got no radar then everything beneath the NORDO is
effectively shut down until it's known to be on the ground.

If you are NORDO, your mode C might not work either... How would ATC
know who's below it?

Ari.