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#171
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
Paul J. Adam wrote:
In message , Ken S. Tucker writes On Mar 18, 12:36 am, "William Black" wrote: Aren't we forgetting someone? This being a naval group and all... The RN was pretty much useless, recall Pearl Harbor, Ships sunk in port on a Sunday. Relates to ships at night, mixed in with your invasion force, how? suppose the Nazi's float a bunch of cheap boats, the RN responds and the Luftwaff would've put a lot of iron in the channel. At night? The Luftwaffe was pretty poor at sinking ships in 1940. Stukas did a very credible job. They got four of forty destroyers at Dunkirk over days, when they were stopped to take on troops: here they have to sink forty destroyers very fast, at night, while they're making thirty knots. I would more attribute that to your air cover. Ships then as now were sitting ducks. Or did you forget massive air battles at the Coral Sea, Wake Island, Midway Island etc. Japanese aircraft did a real job at Pearl harbor on both anchored ships and fast moving destroyers in the outer harbor at Pearl Harbor. You also seem to forget that Hitler himself ordered a stand down at Dunkirk allowing you to get off that beach. His troops could well have slaughtered the English and French troops to a man. Hell, even Argentina made some good scores against the mighty Royal Navy. Curiously, the RN kept attacking the invasion ports, and the Luftwaffe couldn't stop them. Barges are ultra cheap, especially when they're empty. Yet the Germans didn't have enough, even before they started losing them to bombing and shelling. Oh yes, and assuming they do land. How on earth do they get over the Military Canal in a night? 40 miles = 8 x 5, how long is a night? (please don't tell me I need to prove math). So, what, they're swimming? No armour, no artillery, no vehicles, no supplies beyond what they can swim across with? Going to make the rest of their invasion of Britain interesting... |
#172
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
Paul J. Adam wrote:
In message , Ken S. Tucker writes On Mar 18, 12:36 am, "William Black" wrote: Aren't we forgetting someone? This being a naval group and all... The RN was pretty much useless, recall Pearl Harbor, Ships sunk in port on a Sunday. Relates to ships at night, mixed in with your invasion force, how? suppose the Nazi's float a bunch of cheap boats, the RN responds and the Luftwaff would've put a lot of iron in the channel. At night? The Luftwaffe was pretty poor at sinking ships in 1940. They got four of forty destroyers at Dunkirk over days, when they were stopped to take on troops: here they have to sink forty destroyers very fast, at night, while they're making thirty knots. Curiously, the RN kept attacking the invasion ports, and the Luftwaffe couldn't stop them. Barges are ultra cheap, especially when they're empty. Yet the Germans didn't have enough, even before they started losing them to bombing and shelling. Oh yes, and assuming they do land. How on earth do they get over the Military Canal in a night? 40 miles = 8 x 5, how long is a night? (please don't tell me I need to prove math). So, what, they're swimming? No armour, no artillery, no vehicles, no supplies beyond what they can swim across with? Going to make the rest of their invasion of Britain interesting... Bottom line is that the Germans would have figured a very effective way if that had been their goal. Face it.. You people started 2 wars against Germany, which if we had not interfered would have kicked your asses bloody. For Christs sake, learn your lesson and don't start any more damned wars. Same goes for us. |
#173
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
Chris wrote:
On Mar 18, 2:47 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote: The RN was pretty much useless, recall Pearl Harbor, suppose the This feels like I'm being punked, but let's go ahead and treat this as a real argument. If you are trying to say that airplanes will surely sink the RN and allow Sealion to continue because a lot of ships were sunk at Pearl Harbor, then your argument fails. The Imperial Japanese Navy attacked Pearl Harbor. They would not be involved in a Sealion invasion. What you need to understand is that the IJN was the best in the world at sinking ships at this time. The period from before Pearl Harbor through to the middle of the Guadalcanal campaign or so is their high water mark. Saying that because the Japanese in that time frame could sink a lot of ships in a few hours (especially when they are obligingly stationary in port during daylight) therefore the Germans could to (at night while steaming at 20+ knots) is like saying that because LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers beat the Lakers, me and my friend's who play pick-up basketball will too (even if we give them a 15 point head start) . Let's do a quick comparison of the Luftwaffe (and this is mighty Fliegerkorps X a year later, specially trained for attacking ships- but not in September 1940) and the IJN. During the evacuation of Crete HMS Fiji and HMS Gloucester operated inside Luftwaffe air range for over two days, with no fighter support, and were only sunk when the two cruisers ran out of AA ammo. During Operation C the Kido Butai's dive bombers (the torpedo bombers held their weapons, hoping for better targets) put HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire both underwater within a half-hour of the first bomb falling. That is the level of difference we are talking about between the Japanese and the Germans: an order of magnitude in effectiveness. And then factor in the difference between hitting ships that are moving and hitting ships that are berthed in port, and I begin to suspect that you are not fully serious with this argument. Nazi's float a bunch of cheap boats, the RN responds and the Luftwaffe Were would they get these cheap boats? They didn't have enough to carry their invasion force, even by essentially ending all river traffic and causing significant economic dislocation (in particular, coal transport was seriously curtailed, meaning that steel production was way down- see Tooze, _Wages of Destruction_). Barges were critical for German economic activity, and they didn't have enough (largely because Hitler had focused on other things, allowing most of the transportation infrastructure to degrade severely- the Reichsbahn suffered quite badly too). I am leaning towards the conclusion that this argument of yours must be some sort of elaborate hoax, though I am at a loss as to the purpose. Chris Manteuffel And here you sit in America. the country that took the P51 from a mere thought to design and production in less then 90 days. What the Hell do you think German Engineers could do with Hitler up their ass.? Did you forget the massive beyond belief weapons of all kinds production of Speer? If Germany had set its sights on England..without outside help..England would have become toast. The limeys should thank their lucky stars that Germany set its sights on Russia instead. England had it very bad as being only a secondary target of Germany. England should also be damned glad Japan brought America from a covert military supplier to open warfare. |
#174
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
Keith Willshaw wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message ... On Mar 17, 3:38 pm, "Paul J. Adam" wrote: In message , Ken S. Tucker writes I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat. In the same way that the Japanese could have conquered the US in five days in 1941 if they'd only bothered to try? (Land in California, commandeer weapons and transport from the cowardly fleeing populace, race the bad news to Washington, impose Imperial hegemony, declare victory while forcibly recruiting all white females between seven and seventy for "recreational services"?) I think whoever was telling you this, was pulling your leg so hard it's still out of its socket, and they're still telling the story of "some clueless guy called Tucker" who didn't just swallow the hook but took the line, and the sinker, and tried to eat the rod as well. I think the source is reliable, my Old Boy was a WW2 vet spook who had more access to info than any historian will ever get, and explained it to me. That said, I don't want to play 'what if' games, ok. But I'll let you in on a secret, the Brits had thousands of cannons after Dunkirk, available for Nazi photo recon, made of wood logs, that's all the Brits had was bluff, but I think it was good in any case, the croats figured it was real. Britain was not at war with Croatia. The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3. Apart from those in the hands of the 11 infantry divisions and 2 armoured brigades deployed for home defense. Those 2 or 3 rifles came in rather handy in defeating the large Italian army that invaded Egypt Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or 11 pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's. As I said, no sweat. There are a few minor problems, 50+ destroyers, a couple of dozen cruisers 5 or 6 Battleships and 20 bomber squadrons would be taking turns at shooting up those barges which would be moving at a slow walking pace. Oops. All sunk of course. Checkmate. Do you really take the German general staff as being amateurs at warfare? That has long been Englands downfall. Underestimating others and overestimating themselves. Keith |
#175
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
William Black wrote:
"Alexander" wrote in message ... You are dreaming. Very few War Historians believe that the English Lion would not succumb in the event Germany had turned to England rather then Russia. How do they get there to inflict this defeat? That has already been answered. Move on. |
#176
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
Andrew Swallow wrote:
William Black wrote: "Alexander" wrote in message ... You are dreaming. Very few War Historians believe that the English Lion would not succumb in the event Germany had turned to England rather then Russia. How do they get there to inflict this defeat? And even if they do get to England how does the German Army resupply? The Royal Navy would find sinking unarmed merchant ships and barges in the Channel a turkey shoot. Unlike land battles ordinary trunks on ordinary roads/railways cannot be used. Andrew Swallow If the ports are over run who refuels, rearms the ships that are now toothless. Germany do a helluva a job resupplying their troops megamiles away in Russia. That is until American Airpower mixed with what little airpower England had left wiped out their supply lines. Germany was basically starving to death from 1943 onward and yet damned near turned the tide at the battle of the bulge. With out American logistics England and Russia were flat ****ed! Get over it. You fools made bad decisions and we bailed you out. Now we have made some bad economic decisions and I doubt any of you will even stir to bail us out. Of course we will turn this around on our own as we always have in the past. |
#177
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Mar 18, 10:19*pm, Alexander wrote:
Did you forget the massive beyond belief weapons of all kinds production of Speer? I know that Speer managed to produce 0 useful Type XXI submarines, and when Germany needed to defend their own airspace, he managed the neat trick of producing a ton of fighters that were obsolete (Me109's certainly, and to a lesser extent FW190), and a small number of fighters that were beyond the bleeding edge- the engines of the Me262 had such terrible reliability that the fighters weren't at all useful for Germany. What makes you think that they could magically fix these problems? If Germany had set its sights on England..without outside help..England would have become toast. Not for at least a decade to build up a navy and air force capable of defeating the RN and starving Britain into submission. Without US or USSR support they would not have much hope of forcing Germany to change their government and remove Hitler, but by the same token, he would have no chance of winning either. It would be something similar to two centuries ago, during the struggle with Napoleon, when Britain needed continental allies to achieve victory, but could not be forced out by their enemy. Chris Manteuffel |
#178
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:23:18 -0500, Don Ocean wrote:
Keith Willshaw wrote: "Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message ... On Mar 17, 3:38 pm, "Paul J. Adam" wrote: In message , Ken S. Tucker writes I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat. In the same way that the Japanese could have conquered the US in five days in 1941 if they'd only bothered to try? (Land in California, commandeer weapons and transport from the cowardly fleeing populace, race the bad news to Washington, impose Imperial hegemony, declare victory while forcibly recruiting all white females between seven and seventy for "recreational services"?) I think whoever was telling you this, was pulling your leg so hard it's still out of its socket, and they're still telling the story of "some clueless guy called Tucker" who didn't just swallow the hook but took the line, and the sinker, and tried to eat the rod as well. I think the source is reliable, my Old Boy was a WW2 vet spook who had more access to info than any historian will ever get, and explained it to me. That said, I don't want to play 'what if' games, ok. But I'll let you in on a secret, the Brits had thousands of cannons after Dunkirk, available for Nazi photo recon, made of wood logs, that's all the Brits had was bluff, but I think it was good in any case, the croats figured it was real. Britain was not at war with Croatia. The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3. Apart from those in the hands of the 11 infantry divisions and 2 armoured brigades deployed for home defense. Those 2 or 3 rifles came in rather handy in defeating the large Italian army that invaded Egypt Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or 11 pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's. As I said, no sweat. There are a few minor problems, 50+ destroyers, a couple of dozen cruisers 5 or 6 Battleships and 20 bomber squadrons would be taking turns at shooting up those barges which would be moving at a slow walking pace. Oops. All sunk of course. Checkmate. Do you really take the German general staff as being amateurs at warfare? That has long been Englands downfall. Underestimating others and overestimating themselves. Actually, for all their posturing, press releases, and post-war finger pointing that they were the Jedi Knights and that they only lost because of the Dead Guy That Nobody Liked, the German General Staff was pretty poor. (Let's see - 2 World Wars, 2 losses.) The never, ever got a handle on the idea of logistics. Coupling this with a grasp of Industrial Economy that was below that of Lemurs, and the overweening arrogance that was taught to them from their first Staff School on up - I don't think it was the Brits underestimating. There's a reason why the Germans fought in short campaigns followed by extended periods of quiescence. They did not ever have the industrial capacity, either in manufacturing, or, more importantly, raw materials, to make up losses while the fighting was going on. As soon as you take on opponents that won't kindly allow you a rest - The Soviet Union, the US, and, to a lesser extent, the British Empire, you were guaranteed to lose. (Some of their uniforms were kinda spiffy, though) -- Pete Stickney Failure is not an option It comes bundled with the system |
#179
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Mar 18, 10:05*pm, Alexander wrote:
Japanese aircraft did a real job at Pearl harbor on both anchored ships and fast moving destroyers in the outer harbor at Pearl Harbor. As I already noted in another post, please don't base your ideas for what the Germans could do based on the successes of the Japanese Navy. The Japanese Navy was so much better than the Luftwaffe at sinking ships that the comparison is ludicrous. But the real question here is what the hell are you talking about with respect to "fast moving destroyers in the outer harbor at Pearl Harbor"? First of all, what is the "outer harbor at Pearl Harbor"? Second of all, please name the destroyers the IJN sank at Pearl Harbor. Then please note how many of them were moving. I anxiously await your no doubt well researched and footnoted response. Chris Manteuffel |
#180
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
Alexander wrote:
snip Face it.. You people started 2 wars against Germany, which if we had not interfered would have kicked your asses bloody. For Christs sake, learn your lesson and don't start any more damned wars. Same goes for us. Read a history book. Germany invaded her neighbours unprovoked at the start of both world wars. Noting your bias against the UK and Israel I'm sure you will find a way to blame those 2 countries anyway. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired |
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