RFH: Ottawa (CYOW) - Philadelphia (KPHL)

K. Ari Krupnikov wrote:

I wouldn't worry too much about what route you file, it will most
probably change -- several times during your flight. Is that not the
case in Canada?

When there's a published preferred IFR route, I usually get it. When I get
close to Toronto they like to start messing with me, but the traffic flow
there is pretty crazy, so that's excusable.

When there's not a published preferred IFR route, it seems that there's
still usually an *unpublished* one that I have to learn by trial and error.
We should start collecting those on a Web site somewhere.

Enjoy XML 2003. Are you giving a talk?

Thanks -- I think my paper's on Wednesday.


All the best,


David

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 19:36:15 GMT, David Megginson
wrote:

K. Ari Krupnikov wrote:

I wouldn't worry too much about what route you file, it will most
probably change -- several times during your flight. Is that not the
case in Canada?

When there's a published preferred IFR route, I usually get it. When I get
close to Toronto they like to start messing with me, but the traffic flow
there is pretty crazy, so that's excusable.

If you think the traffic around YYZ is pretty crazy, I'd really be
interested in your opinions after you fly down the east cost to PHL. I
consider anywhere in Canada, even in/around YYZ to be kind of slow and laid
back, compared to the Washington DC area where I am based. If you want a
taste of it, just fly a little further to BWI. :-)

When there's not a published preferred IFR route, it seems that there's
still usually an *unpublished* one that I have to learn by trial and error.
We should start collecting those on a Web site somewhere.

Enjoy XML 2003. Are you giving a talk?

Thanks -- I think my paper's on Wednesday.


All the best,


David

If you think the traffic around YYZ is pretty crazy, I'd really be
interested in your opinions after you fly down the east cost to PHL. I
consider anywhere in Canada, even in/around YYZ to be kind of slow and laid
back, compared to the Washington DC area where I am based. If you want a
taste of it, just fly a little further to BWI. :-)

I haven't been there since 9-11, but over the years I've gone to DCA
and IAD a couple dozen times, and never had a problem.

DCA tower always (in VFR wx) cleared me to land on one of the cross
runways between the big iron, with no delay, trusting me to hold
short. And I've mentioned here before that once, after clearing me
for the approach at IAD, AC told an Air France jet who called in right
after I did, "You're number two behind the Cherokee."

Hard to complain about service like that.

vince norris

Jay Somerset wrote:

If you think the traffic around YYZ is pretty crazy, I'd really be
interested in your opinions after you fly down the east cost to PHL. I
consider anywhere in Canada, even in/around YYZ to be kind of slow and laid
back, compared to the Washington DC area where I am based. If you want a
taste of it, just fly a little further to BWI. :-)

It's the traffic flow, not the traffic that's crazy: Brampton airport is
right under one of the major arrival/departure paths for CYYZ, which makes
handling an IFR in or out of Brampton a nightmare for ATC. On my way in, I
just cancelled IFR to make life easier for all of us, but on my way out, it
was low night IMC, so I had to arrange a time over the phone and still got
zigzagged all over the GTA to avoid all the CYYZ arrivals. IFR into Toronto
Island (City Centre) is no problem, since it's nicely out of the way.

I have no experience with your airspace, but I have flown inside NYC
airspace (to Caldwell, from the north), and found it surprisingly quiet -- I
was expecting something like PUSHING TIN, with controllers firing new
instructions every two seconds followed by "break", but that afternoon, at
least, the NW sector was much quieter than the Ottawa Terminal area I'd left
behind. The following evening, near midnight, it was a bit busier with all
the cargo planes coming into to Teterboro, but still not bad.

To this day, I've never heard a controller so busy that he/she had to use
"break" except inside Ottawa Terminal airspace. Maybe this weekend ... (of
course, I've never flown to KOSH).


All the best,


David

vincent p. norris wrote:

And I've mentioned here before that once, after clearing me
for the approach at IAD, AC told an Air France jet who called in right
after I did, "You're number two behind the Cherokee."

Hard to complain about service like that.

I have the (dubious) pleasure of hearing that kind of thing all the time at
my home airport, CYOW. As long as there's adequate spacing (given different
aircraft speeds), it's first-come/first-served.


All the best,


David

David Megginson writes:

It's the traffic flow, not the traffic that's crazy: Brampton airport
is right under one of the major arrival/departure paths for CYYZ,
which makes handling an IFR in or out of Brampton a nightmare for ATC.
On my way in, I just cancelled IFR to make life easier for all of us,
but on my way out, it was low night IMC, so I had to arrange a time
over the phone and still got zigzagged all over the GTA to avoid all
the CYYZ arrivals. IFR into Toronto Island (City Centre) is no
problem, since it's nicely out of the way.

Then again, Toronto Terminal are not as accommodating to GA as some
other approaches I've talked to. The one time I had to go from Island
to Brampton (after letting my passenger out on my way from Ottawa), I
asked ground if they could coordinate with Terminal a clearance direct
YTP VOR direct Brampton. Brampton and Island are on a line that passes
through YYZ [1], and I wanted to avoid going the long way around the
terminal area. Ground said they'd never heard of such a request being
made, much less granted. Once in the air, I called terminal, and they
said pretty much the same thing.

To this day, I've never heard a controller so busy that he/she had to
use "break" except inside Ottawa Terminal airspace. Maybe this
weekend ... (of course, I've never flown to KOSH).

I'm afraid I've never heard it either. Does it mean "don't reply"?
"Expect no further transmission"?

Ari.

[1] http://mapserver.maptech.com/homepag...tlontyp e=DMS

--
Elections only count as free and trials as fair if you can lose money
betting on the outcome.

To this day, I've never heard a controller so busy that he/she had to
use "break" except inside Ottawa Terminal airspace. Maybe this
weekend ... (of course, I've never flown to KOSH).

I'm afraid I've never heard it either. Does it mean "don't reply"?
"Expect no further transmission"?


I've heard it (I'm on the East Coast). It means "the next transmission is
coming right away and is meant for somebody else so please don't step on it".
That way the controller can issue a lot of instructions quickly and sort out a
mess that has developed (not through any fault of the controller, usually).

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

K. Ari Krupnikov wrote:

I'm afraid I've never heard it either. Does it mean "don't reply"?
"Expect no further transmission"?

It's standard phraseology for "don't acknowledge," i.e.

charlie victor oscar, stay on downwind, I'll call your base, BREAK
bravo juliet oscar winds 290 at eight knots cleared for landing, BREAK
Air Canada 999, exit left on foxtrot, ground 121.9

I've had it only a few times, and only once IFR ("stand by for your
readback, BREAK").


All the best,


David

K. Ari Krupnikov wrote:

I wouldn't worry too much about what route you file, it will most
probably change -- several times during your flight. Is that not the
case in Canada?

And so it was. The controllers kept clearing me direct to VORs I couldn't
possibly receive yet, and I kept asking for vectors until I could tune in
the VOR rather than cheating and navigating solely with my new 196 (which is
a nifty device). I do the same dance in Canada often enough. The airways
are designed for people like me, without IFR GPS's, but ATC must be so used
to IFR GPS's now that they tend not to take advantage of them.

I've never landed at PHL, but I did my instruments at PNE, which is
under Philadelphia approach. It has been my experience that PHL
approach think they are the most overworked controllers in the
universe, even though they handle significantly less traffic than,
say, the neighboring NY approach. Maybe they just don't have enough
patience for training flights. (I've never flown in their airspace in
actual; I moved away the day after I passed my instrument checkride).

My experience was very positive -- they were helpful, friendly, and
professional at all levels. Atlantic Aviation was also great. If only the
winds had been more cooperative on the way home ...

Enjoy XML 2003. Are you giving a talk?

Thank you. It went well and (if you don't mind a personal note on a public
list), your name came up when Henry Thompson and I were chatting (Henry was
serving as a booth babe for the W3C on the exhibit floor; any comments on
that had best be offline).


All the best, and clear skies,


David

David Megginson writes:

The controllers kept clearing me direct to VORs I
couldn't possibly receive yet, and I kept asking for vectors until I
could tune in the VOR rather than cheating and navigating solely with
my new 196 (which is a nifty device).

Glad you got yourself one of those. It's amazing how much it reduces
workload, isn't it? No substitute for the paper chart, but truly an
"aid to navigation".

BTW, where did you end up clearing customs, Philly or closer to the
border?

Enjoy XML 2003. Are you giving a talk?

Thank you. It went well and (if you don't mind a personal note on a
public list), your name came up when Henry Thompson and I were
chatting (Henry was serving as a booth babe for the W3C on the exhibit
floor; any comments on that had best be offline).

My From: is a valid account I read.

Ari.

--
Elections only count as free and trials as fair if you can lose money
betting on the outcome.