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In message , Kevin Brooks
writes "Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... Why? You're the one who responded to argument with a version of "it was a joke, son, a joke" a few posts back. And you were the one who said that humor was inappropriate in this thread--right up until you wanted to use it yourself. Typical. No, I didn't - I thought misquotation was a Bad Thing? I *did* say I didn't find it amusing, but show me where I tried to deny you permission. Not particularly. You suggested a properly calibrated humour switch was a necessary tool, now you're flying off the handle because it seems your calibration is badly off. Only because you told us it was not allowed in this thread. Where? Are you merely confused, or just mendacious? Sorry, we were talking about UNSCR687, not Congressional resolutions. Unless you accept that Iraqi government resolutions that Kuwait was actually the 19th Province and should be reunified immediately were also binding? Sorry that you can't grasp that our congress decided to actually act in this case, So, UN resolutions are irrelevant? Why are you discussing them, in that case? No mention of *industrial* production, meaning they had at best reached prototype testing - and certainly not excluding prototype testing. Actually, no mention of *any* production. Please point to where any "non-industrial" production was mentioned in regards to these kind of weapons? So these shells were never produced? No - just no evidence of a production line for the results of the suspected research. Again, please point to where the UN inspectors point to *any* binary rounds being produced as part of this program. No? Find evidence of *any* binary rounds being produced in Iraq. As I said--the UN never mentions any evidence of *any* rounds being fabricated, Despite an apparent research program. nor did the Iraqis acknowledge producing any such rounds, be they R&D products or not. Which is what I have been saying all along--so your point would be...? That this was a prototype (not production), or even an import. Certainly no evidence that Iraq produced it, according to you. The first Archerfish prototype was built in a garage in personal time. Now it's part of the US AMNS program. Doesn't mean the first few hand-built prototypes never existed, or that Redfish didn't get lost while surveying Brent Spar. We are not talking about Archerfish--we are talking about Iraqi binary rounds which you indicated the UN report addressed--but in fact the UN reports did not ever mention any such rounds being in existance, and was only aware that some form of R&D had occured. How much R&D? Enough for a few prototypes, for example? (Pretty basic R&D if they didn't even get to basic prototype testing...) To repeat, "These also include Iraq's efforts to develop new delivery means for CW-agents, such as special warheads other than for Al-Hussein missiles, i.e. FROG missile, and real binary artillery munitions and aerial bombs. Evidence of such studies was found in the documents from the Haider farm." Wow. How many rounds are produced by the usual "study"? Between five and fifty, in my direct experience - those were guided weapons, though, so artillery shells would likely be rather higher. Can be a hundred or more for an experimental round (thinking of the L15 shell as the one I heard about, and that was just an improved HE round) Why bother with "industrial production" when you can apparently convene a few folks around a table, produce a report or two regarding design requirments and feasibility, and ...presto, rounds magically appear? How many rounds, taking how long? (Remember you fire these by the pallet load in action - prototypes are fine for development but you then freeze the design and set up a line for mass production) The fact is that the UN never mentioned the physical existance, or suspected existance, of *any* binary rounds--as I told you before. And they also were explicit that there was no Iraqi production facility for binary sarin shells found (confirmed by subsequent events). So I guess that proves the shell can't be Iraqi, if your logic is correct. So, evidence of studies but not of production lines. And in over a year of searching based first on intelligence, then on prisoner interrogation, there's no sign of any production line that could have produced such a shell. One option is that this was a pre-91 prototype round. Another is that it was imported, from Syria or Iran as examples. Evidence that it's part of a domestic production program is the thinnest of all - yet that's the mast you've chosen to nail your colours to. You see Iran as a potential supplier of chemical munitions to Saddam?! Absolutely not - the concept's ludicrous. But he's been gone over a year, and I can see Iran (or factions within Iran) supplying Shi'a resistance with weapons. And where is your evidence that Syria was a possible source? Same place as your evidence that the round came from an Iraqi mass production line Paulian conjecture? OTOH, we do have the UN acknowledging that the Iraqis were working on binary development, and geee, what do you kniow, a binary round turns up in Iraq. Occam's razor says it was probably of Iraqi manufacture. Isn't that what I keep saying? If they had a development program, they'd have had a few hand-built rounds to test the concept... except, according to you, they must have managed to go directly from paper concept to frozen design without a single prototype, and then made the production line and everyone who knew about it disappear into thin air before the US arrived. The UN found hard evidence of neither R&D rounds nor mass production, but you cannot get to mass production without the development & proving trials, for which you need R&D rounds. I think you need to look again at Occam's razor and try wielding it properly. Nice evasion. So why not invade Iraq properly in autumn 1991, when they're thoroughly in violation? Because we were willing to give them a chance to meet the terms of the ceasefire from our then-recent little dance in the desert. And we continued to give them opportunities to meet those requirements for the next twelve years. Many of us find that a more than reasonable time period during which Saddam could have chosen to fully comply with the requirements. But he did not do so, and was as you acknowledge in violation on some number of issues--too bad for him. So, go to the UN and get a resolution authorising action and imploring all member nations to lend assistance. Or is the UN only relevant when it suits you? If it's not relevant, then neither is 687. If it *is* relevant, then you need authorisation or self-defence to invade another member country. There was supposed to be a major, imminent threat. There wasn't, Not according to our case. Your case turned out to be badly in error. You mean, "avoid all the issues you find too hard to deal with?" No, they have been dealt with--you just typically try to continually reorient to this "immediate or imminent threat" from WMD that was, in fact, not a requirement for our action per the case set forth by our leaders on this side of the pond. Sorry, but that is just not an accurate portrayal of what was required to justify action, as the White House report I pointed you at made clear. "Baghdad has begun renewed production of chemical warfare agents, probably including mustard, sarin, cyclosarin, and VX. Its capability was reduced during the UNSCOM inspections and is probably more limited now than it was at the time of the Gulf war, although VX production and agent storage life probably have been improved. Saddam probably has stocked a few hundred metric tons of CW agents." http://www.odci.gov/cia/reports/iraq...q_Oct_2002.htm Let's remember that we British apparently used chemical weapons on the Iraqis during the 1920s. Out of interest, would digging up a 1920s-vintage shell filled with mustard gas count as "a violation" and be the complete, absolute justification you seem to consider it? No. So is it one shell, two shells or three shells that become the violation? I am not, and have said so to you repeatedly. Since you're fond of invective, let me now call *you* a liar for repeatedly making false claims despite contradiction. Have you not continually stated that if we went into Iraq under the justifications we have set forth, that we also should *have* to similarly and simultaneously address every other WMD-holding state with similar, either overt/government approved or covert/non-government sanctioned ties to terrorism, etc., in the same manner as we have Iraq? No. Your fantasy, not mine, falsely attributed to me. I expressed concern that Iraq presented a much lower threat than several other nations, and represented a significant diversion of resources since even the US can only undertake one such operation at a time. That bears no resemblance to the nonsense you claim I espouse. In particular, point to when I demanded *simultaneous* action - that addition is your invention, not mine. (The US doesn't have the available resources to deal with Sudan at the moment, let alone Iran or Syria...) Where have *I* ever mentioned a "standard playbook for international affairs"? (Your words, this post) That is your own invention which you have falsely, repeatedly, attributed to me. You are a liar. The "standard playbook" is my accurate paraphrase "I accurately paraphrase, you're a filthy liar". Yes, extremely consistent. I ask why greater apparent threats are considered less urgent (and why the US is so extending itself with Iraq as to preclude any significant action against those threats), and you claim I espouse a rigidly standardised approach that must be undertaken in parallel? Hardly an "accurate paraphrase", in fact I'd call it a deliberate distortion. Go through your list of quotes. When do I say that the US *must* invade anyone else? I ask when other threats will get the same treatment: I do not demand parallel operations. But I suppose only you get to define what "accurate paraphrase" is. Where have I ever stated that only "great numbers of rounds in massive stockpiles" or "only massive amounts", (both you, this thread, June 05) would be convincing? Again, your invention, falsely quoted as being my words. You are a liar. "A huge lethal pile of WME may still emerge, but the odds continue to worsen." 12 Sep 03 Nothing about how much would be *necessary*. "One elderly shell isn't a threat. That's a fact we can both agree on. You measure chemical weapons in terms of tons of agent." (In this very thread) And completely true - read your Joint Warfare Publications, or whatever the US equivalent is. So, it appears that you do indeed require "massive amounts" if you are only willing to consider "tons of agent". I'd accept "Militarily significant". "Massive amounts" is simply dishonest: you're presenting it as a direct quotation of my words, when in fact it's your distortion. But again, when you do this it's just "accurate paraphrasing". Of course, you have also said recently, "1998 and earlier, I'm willing to accept a few (call it three, offhand) "WME stockpiles" that are - for a rule of thumb - a pallet or less of shells, 122mm rockets, or precursors each. 1991 or earlier, I'd raise the bar quite a lot higher, because they prepared to fight a defensive war and then lost it massively and that's where large amounts of kit go missing. (We're still occasionally digging up buried caches of 1940s No. 76 grenades here in the UK, which is a problem because they're beer bottles filled with a benzene, rubber and white phosphorous mixture - not nice to accidentally put a spade through one) Post-1998, "a pallet" of filled basic munitions or of filler for them, or a single weapon that was a significant advance on their previous capability, would be conclusive proof. Less than that would be a very unwelcome surprise, though not decisive (we know they *wanted* to keep their programs going, but the claim was that the programs existed and were an immediate threat)" 18 May 04 Which leaves one a bit perplexed as to what exactly you do require- I thought the above was perfectly clear. -it ranges from the acceptance of one round of a type they were not known to have (which you apparently no longer accept, being as this binary round no longer makes your cut-off score), They were known to be working on it, remember? Weaponised VX, or an effective BW agent with workable dispersal means, would be appropriate. Going from "binary lite" to "true binary" with sarin would not. to multiple pallets of rounds, to the claim that you have to have "tons of agent" in order to be measurable. Basically, we're looking for evidence that there was an Iraqi threat. The older the munitions are, the more production they had back then. One estimate is that Iraq produced something over 200,000 chemical munitions, of which maybe half were expended during the war with Iraq (try proving *that* claim solidly). From 1991 onwards his NBCR facilities were under inspection and occasional attack, and "it was lost in 1987" or "it was overrun in 1991" becomes infeasable. Shall I continue? I find your protestations of wounded honour extremely amusing, since you so freely indulge in the conduct you claim to deprecate. Mine are pretty accurate--your's have been deplorably inaccurate, and proven as such. Your definition of "accurate" here is as incorrect as when you use it to describe your paraphrasing. Well, it seems the director of your Central Intelligence Agency at least felt he was wrong. Uhmmm...again, where in the White House's case against Iraq did you find thaose descriptive terms? Eh? Quoted the CIA's white paper at you. "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." President G W Bush, March 17 2003 "The Iraqi regime has violated all of those obligations. It possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons... Some ask how urgent this danger is to America and the world. The danger is already significant, and it only grows worse with time. If we know Saddam Hussein has dangerous weapons today -- and we do... Iraq could decide on any given day to provide a biological or chemical weapon to a terrorist group or individual terrorists... Saddam Hussein still has chemical and biological weapons and is increasing his capabilities to make more. And he is moving ever closer to developing a nuclear weapon...." President G W Bush, October 17, 2002 Shame about the lack of production lines, isn't it? "Lambasted"? When? "I'm not really seeing anything funny - I've got family currently being shot at because of this." Lambast, verb. Beat with a cane [syn: cane, flog, lambaste] 2: censure severely or angrily; "The mother scolded the child for entering the stranger's car"; "The deputy ragged the Prime Minister"; "The customer dressed down the waiter for bringing cold soup"; I told you your joke wasn't funny to me, and you call it "severe or angry censure"? Either you're ignorant, lying or mentally unstable. Then why did you say it if you're not certain? Oh, I forgot - humour and sarcasm. Which are admirable rhetorical tools in your hands, but deceitful lies when used against you. Just as paraphrasing your debator's words is a perfectly acceptable tactic for you, but a filthy deception when practiced against you. No, you keep forgetting that it was you who took the "nothing humorous about this subject" bent. I thought you claimed I forbade you from using humour? (Or are you finally withdrawing that false claim?) Once you are proven to be a liar, none of your words have much weight Let me know if you ever find any proof, then. No. Why do you suddenly find them credible, and why have you so conspicuously failed to defend them? What? I find Kay to be quite credible. So if you are not calling him a liar, then you must accept his testimony that violations, to include that ricin program, were indeed found. +++++ Weapons of mass destruction do not exist in Iraq and it is "delusional" to think they will be found, says former chief US weapons inspector David Kay. Mr Kay told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that British and American leaders should simply apologise and admit that they were wrong.... "There were clearly illegal activities, clear violations of UN Security Council resolutions. We have accumulated that evidence and really have accumulated that evidence to a considerable degree four months ago. "There are not actual stockpiles of newly produced weapons of mass destruction." +++++ http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3778987.stm Still find him credible? You mean, like "massive quantities"? Go on, find me a post where I said that - yet you attributed it to me. Or is it not lying when *you* do it? See above--your own words always tend to let you down, don't they Paul? So, you've proved I *never* said "massive quantities" and your claiming I did, is a lie. (You paraphrased it and passed it off as a direct quotation, while claiming that doing so is a lie) It's curious that those who are most generous in flinging the charge of "liar" are those who themselves are quite reckless with the truth. Prove it, as I have in your case. Done, repeatedly. No, you rattled off a laundry-list of reasons. Were they in order? What was the relative importance? *That* was what you were asked for and you have *still* failed to provide. You asked for the reasons--you got them...again, and again. I asked for the reasons and their relative importance. You provided "some" of the reasons and refused to prioritise them. Again, and again, and again. I'm being generous because you repeated the laundry list and still left out the order and prioritisation I asked for. Oh, so sorry! Thank you. Why should I have bothered to prioritize them, when you refused to even acknowledge they were given to you? Because a partial list without the prioritisation is meaningless. Is there is prioritization system required? No, not that I am aware of. It was asked for, you repeatedly refuse to provide it, and now you claim you fully and completely answered the question. Curious definition of honesty you use over there, Kevin. And now you wiggle and squirm, and try to claim that I never gave them to you in the precise format that you (only later, after they were originally given to you) requested. I don't need to *claim* you refused, you proudly boast of doing so. Now, remember you've left out any priority and importance. Are these the top slice of the list? The least important reasons that are safe for public discussion? A random selection? You asked "Out of interest, what *were* the reasons? Let us avoid future misunderstandings." To which I gave you an answer. You then went on to ask for them in a "rough order of importance", which I did not do, seeing as there is no standard or approved "order of importance" for such things. I see - so, in other words even you admit you never answered the question, providing a partial evasion which you then hid behind repeatedly. How bizarre. What, exactly, is the "lie" here? You should be able to find your's quite easily, as they are getting to be so darned common. And you left out the quote of your own words: ""It's not about the WMD". I can only go by what you say, Kevin...Your claiming they were irrelevant was something of a hint." (Both are direct quotes from your comments last month) Gee, that does not sound like much of an apology to me--more like a continued effort to falsely claim that I had made that very statement. From: Paul J. Adam ) Subject: Sarin in a 155 artillery round Newsgroups: sci.military.naval Date: 2004-05-19 13:51:14 PST "That was a paraphrase, not a quote: I put the name and date on the quote so it could be traced. My apologies if the distinction wasn't clear enough." Now, is that not an apology? Meanwhile, you repeatedly and blatantly conduct exactly the same false attribution, invent bizarre positions such as "defending Hussein" and claim they're mine. You have defended Hussein--not all of the time, but enough. When, precisely? That whole bit about Saddam not knowing about his WMD programs, Actually, having a grossly exaggerated idea of them. +++++ From: Paul J. Adam ) Subject: Truman: the buck stops here Newsgroups: sci.military.naval Date: 2003-07-15 14:46:54 PST "I'm personally inclined to believe that Saddam's stated chemical and biological weapon production was close kin to Soviet-era food harvests: every Five-Year Plan reports record yields of grain, milk and meat, while mysteriously food rations are cut (again) - only because Western-inspired 'revisionists', 'capitalists' and 'hooligans' are sabotaging the distribution of these bumper crops." +++++ and presumably him being therefore innocent of these violations, I don't follow you here. Saddam wrongly believed he had potent stockpiles of WME and this renders him *innocent*? How does this constitute "defending him"? is a defense of Saddam. Come on, you have wasted enough electrons in that sort of tapdance--you should at least be able to admit that is a defense of Saddam. No, I'm afraid you're either mendacious or confused again. Depends what you mean - he disappeared in clouds of bluster and killfiled me every time I proved he was talking out of his arse. *He* started calling me a liar when I pointed out you could use precision-guided weapons for close air support and he insisted that had never happened, didn't happen now and could never be considered. Apparently all those LGBs, JDAMs and Mavericks reported expended in CAS missions were just fictions of the pilots' overheated imaginations. Well, in my case your own words have repeatedly shown you to be a liar. That's what he said as well. Oh, and he's fond of the tactical paraphrase too. Sounds like a bit of a different situation to me. No, I think it's remarkably similar. Can't argue the issues? Call your opponent a liar. Don't get anywhere with that? Resort to invective. Where did I ever claim there was a "standard playbook for international affairs"? You repeatedly use that phrase, in quotation marks, as if it was my own words. Where did I mention the existence of such? Or did you invent it and then falsely attribute it to me? As I said above, and backed up with repeated direct quotes from your numerous posts on the subject, that is an accurate paraphrase-- You presented it in a manner which you claimed made it a quotation. It is not a quotation, it's a paraphrase, and not even an accurate one. So, you're passing off your words as mine with intent to deceive? Your rules, not mine - but they make you a liar. And a much more determined one, since I *immediately* made clear that the disputed words were not a direct quotation and apologised for the error: while you continue to insist that peddling a distortion of my words as if they were my own, is a fair and decent thing to do. "NK and Iran are much nearer WME than Iraq, and Syria is widely alleged to have chemical warheads on over a hundred Scud copies. Sounds like a threat to me - when do we go in? If it was good enough for Iraq, it's good enough for them." If Iraq is such a threat, why is Your words. I am guessing you are beginning to hate the long-term emeory quality of Google about now; it must truly suck having to face your own words that bear out the accuracy of how I characterized your argument in this regard, huh? Indeed: it's very useful to compare your quotes - sorry, when *you* do it they're just paraphrases - with what I actually wrote and to see how vague your definition of "accurate paraphrase" is. Now, if you weren't so in arms about this being a gross and malicious falsehood when done to *you*, this wouldn't be an issue: your enthusiasm for distorting positions is obvious and hardly new. It's your self-righteous hypocrisy that it's perfectly acceptable for *you*, but malicious falsehood from anyone else, that's so curious. Where have I ever stated that only "great numbers of rounds in massive stockpiles" or "only massive amounts", (both you, this thread, June 05) would be convincing? Again, your invention, falsely placed in quotation marks as though they were my own words. Where did I make those statements? Citations, please. Already provided above. No, you posted how I described quantities. You then falsely quoted me as requiring "great numbers of rounds in massive quantities", words you yourself have proved I never used. Oh, I forgot - when *you* change people's words it's just an "accurate paraphrase". Which I immediately made clear was a paraphrase and apologised for - a point you ignored, while indulging in the exact same conduct yourself. No, go back and read the record--you did not immediately apologize. Google shows you raised your protest at 18:38:40 PST on May 18, and I apologised at 13:51:14 PST on May 19. How much more "immediately" do you want on Usenet? I corrected you, rather politely, and you persisted in inaccurately portraying my argument, I'm sorry, it's now that I "inaccurately portrayed your argument"? This from the person who claims that Hussein's ignorance of his WME programs is "protecting him"? Who routinely and regularly distorts - sorry, "accurately paraphrases" - positions he disagrees with and then presents them as if they were his opponent's own words? I accept that I paraphrased your words, and that I made it insufficiently clear that it was a paraphrase rather than a quotation. going as far as presenting my actual quote that you claimed proved your point. I *then* labled you a liar, and I pointed out that you had ignored the "all" and its import to the meaning; only then did you weakly apologize, but even that apology was less than full S it's now not that I'm a liar, but that you didn't like the apology? ("That was a paraphrase, not a quote: I put the name and date on the quote so it could be traced. My apologies if the distinction wasn't clear enough."). As if your paraphrase was still accurate (and you know it was not--you do know that a paraphrase can be either accurate or inaccurate, don't you?). I'm using your standards of accuracy - are they incorrect? Then you had the unmitigated gall to come back in this thread and claim you *never* attributed that paraphrase directly to me-- No, I didn't. Where did I claim you said it? Remember, if it's a quote then it's traceable. Cripes, at this point you have lied so much, and so repetitively, that they are now piling up on each other. Or maybe you're just flailing. And where did UNSCR687 say "the suspicion (not proof) of a breach shall justify immediate invasion"? Again, you need to actually *read* what you cite. Meaningless. The US chose to enforce 687, which was also, if you have forgotten, the codification of the ceasefire terms for ODS. To do so required a further resolution authorising armed force, in the same way that 660 was followed by 687 as the enabling action for military force. That's UN rules, anyway: either go with the UN or not, but don't pick and mix. Of course, "it's not all about WMDs", it's a completely flexible list - so much so that you proudly boast of being unable to work out what order the reasons might fall in. But then, Hussein wasn't the top threat on any permutation of your list. The White House did not prioritize them, either. I have yet to see any prioritized declaration of war in any other historical conflict; is this something new you are proposing for Paulian World? 'Cause it sure does not seem to apply here on earth, nor has it ever applied. Generally there's no need, because there's a simple clear reason. "Get Germany out of Poland", "Get North Korea out of South Korea", "push the Germans back out of France and liberate Belgium". Still, the idea that you should deal with the most dangerous threats is obviously foreign foolishness rooted in the notion that there's a "handbook" containing basic wisdom like "biggest risk, biggest response". I believe your words we "NK and Iran are much nearer WME than Iraq, and Syria is widely alleged to have chemical warheads on over a hundred Scud copies. Sounds like a threat to me - when do we go in? If it was good enough for Iraq, it's good enough for them." Looks like you are grouping all threats into one big pile and advocating equal treatment for all. No, just comparing threats and wondering why Iraq seemed so urgent when greater dangers lay elsewhere. The idea of "one big pile" and "equal treatment for all" is your own fantasy, nothing I've ever advocated or stated: you continue to falsely attribute it to me, conduct you clearly state is an unacceptable falsehood. Or were you lying when you made that statement? No, I was asking a question (The question marks indicate that it's a "question" not a "statement".) The 'Good enough' followup is rhetorical rather than analytical. Did he ever have the means to support one? Yeah--those binary components of sarin included in that one round, Well, that's going to really slaughter thousands. a ricin program, Which a competent student could replicate in a domestic kitchen. and worse, a demonstrated willingness to both use WMD's (setting him apart from all other current national leaders) Sure, but only because it was the President of Syria's father who used HCN at Hama in 1982. I'm sure the son is a much nicer man. and to directly attack US citizens (of which group that former US President and his entourage are members). Oh, tragic. So you've captured his stockpile of WMEs and attacks on US citizens have stopped? If those really were reasons, they've both failed to succeed... Send a recce aircraft to photograph Syria's WMD factories and missile bases and see what happens. If you have not noticed, Syria is not subject to NFZ restrictions. Can the US fly aircraft freely through Syrian airspace without being at least intercepted, and if they don't co-operate being engaged? Then you've failed to read. (Syria is Ba'athist just like Iraq was and has similar policies about internal dissent) Please point to the evidence that the current governments of either nation are responsible for mass executions. Quote of a quote, since Amnesty's web site is down. +++++ “Some monitors stated: old streets of the city were bombed from the air to facilitate the introduction of military forces and tanks through the narrow streets, like the al-Hader street, where homes were crushed by tanks during the first four days of fighting. On February 15th, after days of intense bombardment, Defence Minister General Mustafa Tlass announced that the rebellion was put out, but the city remained under siege and surrounded. Door-to-door searches along with extensive arrests continued during the next two following weeks, while various news leaks talked about atrocities committed by the security forces and mass killings of innocent city residents. It is not easy to know what did exactly occur, but Amnesty International mentioned news of a mass execution of some 70 people outside the city hospital on February 19th and the annihilation of all residents of the al-Hader area on the hands of the Defense Brigades (Saraya el-Defaa) on the same day. Other reports talk of using containers of cyanide gas to kill all inhabitants of buildings, where rebels were suspected of residing. Also, people were grouped in the military airport, city stadium, and military camps and were left there without shelter or food for days.” The mass murders and mass executions over-step the laws and constitute a grave violation of the right to live, which is the same sacred right mentioned in the universal declaration of human rights and the International treaty regarding human and civil rights (Article 16): every human has the natural right to live, which is protected by this law and it is not allowed to take this right from any individual oppressively. This was an excerpt of a report sent by Amnesty International addressing Syrian President Hafiz Assad in 1983. +++++ http://www.shrc.org.uk/data/aspx/d0/1260.aspx "Other things to see in Hama include the Grand Mosque, which was destroyed during a 1982 uprising. The uprising was started by the Muslim Brotherhood and quashed by 8000 troops, supported by air force and tank assaults. Up to 25,000 people died in the fighting and in following executions and atrocities. Evidence of the uprising has been hidden by widespread restoration - the mosque is among the buildings that have had a facelift." http://www.lloydstsb.lonelyplanet.co...syria/obt.html For Iran, +++++ In July 1981, members of the Union of Communists tried to seize control of the Caspian town of Amol. At least seventy guerrillas and Pasdaran members were killed before the uprising was put down. The government responded to the armed challenge of the guerrilla groups by expanded use of the Pasdaran in counterintelligence activities and by widespread arrests, jailings, and executions. The executions were facilitated by a September 1981, Supreme Judicial Council circular to the revolutionary courts permitting death sentences for "active members" of guerrilla groups. Fifty executions a day became routine; there were days when more than 100 persons were executed. Amnesty International documented 2,946 executions in the 12 months following Bani Sadr's impeachment, a conservative figure because the authorities did not report all executions. +++++ http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+ir0034) Presumably, 3,000 Iranians and 30,000 Syrians will now not count as sufficiently "mass" for you. Or they could have killed themselves in the attempt, or just ruined the shell. (Just because the ingredients of binary sarin aren't nerve toxins, doesn't make them innocuous or easy to handle) I am not aware that either isoproponol or DF are extraordinarily hazardous by themselves. Wouldn't like to be holding the burster charge if it went off unexpectedly. Probably wouldn't be fun if I was taking it apart and ruptured the containers (bet they don't come out easily...) You'd *probably* only start a leak in one... Your invention, not mine. Lying again? Please stick to my own words of "militarily significant" when you wish to attribute a description of required quantity to me. No. You are the one who has repeatedly claimed that "And it was claimed that he was hiding hundreds of tons of chemicals and entire production lines, and that was why we had to invade and secure that threat Right Now." The US did not claim that those were necessary conditions. They did, however, claim that this was the case. Even your own President said so. "It[Iraq] possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons." President G W Bush, October 7 2002 You also have repeatedly claimed that a "immediate or imminent threat" is required; again, the US case did not use that verbage. "Some ask how urgent this danger is to America and the world. The danger is already significant, and it only grows worse with time. If we know Saddam Hussein has dangerous weapons today -- and we do -- does it make any sense for the world to wait to confront him as he grows even stronger and develops even more dangerous weapons?... ....regime change in Iraq is the only certain means of removing a great danger to our nation." President G W Bush, October 7 2002. So, you're now calling me a liar only because you didn't like the tone of my apology? While multiply doing the exact same paraphrase on my words? See the earlier details of this "aplogy " of your's (the one where you said, "That was a paraphrase, not a quote: I put the name and date on the quote so it could be traced. My apologies if the distinction wasn't clear enough." ). Odd, nowhere in that statement do you agree the paraphrase was inaccurate. I'm sorry, I was judging by the standards of accuracy you use when you "paraphrase" other people's positions. However, if *that* is what has you so wound up, then I immediately apologise for the way my paraphrase changed the meaning of your original quote, as well as for the possibility that it might have been taken as a direct quotation of your words. For this I'm called a liar while you repeatedly attribute false statements to me. Prove it. Have done. So take it to the Security Council. Nah, we took care of it ourselves. So the UNSC and its resolutions are irrelevant - so stop mumbling about them. So who was convicted, since the evidence was so solid? Can't recall, though I do believe the Kuwaitis had a couple of people in jail over that one. Well, that's thorough, complete and conclusive. Or is "diehard Saddam apologist" another one of those lies you're so free with? Did I thus label you? No. I said, "Proven to the satisfaction of most, except for diehard Saddam apologists." It was not proven to my satisfaction, therefore you call me a diehard Saddam apologist. However, there's a grey area between "Probably him, but not actually proven" and "Proven" which you are either ignorant of, or choose to igno and whose occupants you describe as "diehard Saddam apologists". If you consider yourself a diehard Saddam apologist, so be it. I would note that you have demonstrated a tendency to project the image of someone who thinks the US did Saddam wrong, based upon your defense of him in regards to his WMD violations. Your fantasy - shame it doesn't connect to reality. Why? Three fugitive murderers are proof of hypocrisy regarding "giving sanctuary to terrorists", but hardly casus belli unless you're really desperate. Two or three known terrorists receiving sanctuary from Iraq, along with one reported terrorist training facility, and behavior such as supporting suicide bombers does indeed constitute part of the casus belli. Funny, that... "supporting terrorism" really is a flexible term when you use it, isn't it? As would your "standard playbook for international affairs" and "great numbers of rounds in massive stockpiles" so falsely attributed to me. No, those have been accurate, based upon your own words, as provided above. No, they are distortions falsely attributed to me. You asked where you attributed it--the answer is right there. You showed how you took my words, twisted them to suit yourself, and falsely attributed them. But you won't admit it, ebven when faced with your own words? Figures. You are a lying sack of ****. Is that a reflective screen, Kevin? Looking at yourself, perchance? Seems you're even more of an egregious liar than me, Kevin, and you've never made clear that you were paraphrasing rather than quoting nor apologised for the misattribution. See where these baseless claims have been addressed earlier in this missive. Now, again--you asked, "Which post of yours did I attribute it to? Where did I say that the words in those inverted commas were yours and yours alone?" I gave you your answer, also in your own words. And proved conclusively that you're attributing statements to me that I never made. Again, you are proven to be a liar. Only in your imagination. Cite please, where I stated that humour was unacceptable in this thread. See earlier quote of your response to my initial humorous remark. "I'm not really seeing anything funny - I've got family currently being shot at because of this." What part of that can be read as "Humour is unacceptable"? I just pointed out that it's not a funny joke. (My cousin turned out to be OK, in case you wondered) So, where precisely did I state where it could be found? Paul, 18 May 04: ""It's not about the WMD". I can only go by what you say, Kevin...Your claiming they were irrelevant was something of a hint" Note the original quotation marks around the initial statement--they were your's. Just as you routinely put quotation marks around your own words and peddle them as mine. Keep on piling up that evidence of your lying, Paul. Don't need to, Kevin: you're digging yourself deeper with every post. Just as you've falsely attributed words to me that I never said, and evaded questions I repeatedly asked - and exploited my tolerance on your evasions to pretend a wounded innocence when in fact you are still fleeing the question. You have offered no proof; you have not challenged the evidence offered that demonstrates again and again your own lies. Offered and demonstrated. In my experience, a fellow like you who has to resort to repeatedly lying in order to try and cover his own missteps, usually is the sort who lacks the courage for such encounters--but you are welcome to prove otherwise. If you want to put it like that? Fort Widley courtyard, dawn, Saturday 19 June. Gauntlet's down. I said when you are in the area; I have never been to the UK, and don't see any chance of going. Oh, how *marvellously* convenient for you. You, OTOH have indicated that you make periodic visits to the DC area, right? No, but I was on holiday there in 2000. I'll be in New York on the 5th of July, though. That is close enough for me--I am more than willing to do a little drivetime if it makes you happy. Seriously. I believe that makes it "put up or shut up" time to you, does it not? Certainly does. Shall I see you on the 5th? And will it be swords or pistols? I thought I didn't apologise? When did your story change? I said, "..which you say..." No, you really did not apologize for it, as we can see from reading the excerpts I included earlier in that regard. In other words, you missed it and are now scrambling? Actually, they don't. Yes, they do. ""It's not about the WMD". I can only go by what you say, Kevin...Your claiming they were irrelevant was something of a hint". Or are you now going to say that Google mysteriously created those words in your name? That's a paraphrase of your position, no less inaccurate than your "accurate paraphrases" of my words. I had the integrity to immediately clarify that the words were a paraphrase rather than a quotation, and apologise for any misrepresentation: you've extended me no such courtesy in your multiple false attributions to me. No, you did not, From: Paul J. Adam ) Subject: Sarin in a 155 artillery round Newsgroups: sci.military.naval Date: 2004-05-19 13:51:14 PST +++++ In message , Kevin Brooks writes BZZZ! Now you are lying. You already provided the quote in question, That was a paraphrase, not a quote: I put the name and date on the quote so it could be traced. My apologies if the distinction wasn't clear enough. +++++ and by this point I have repeatedly shown you did not. Google sucks, doesn't it, when you lie and get found out? Meanwhile, the challenge is open if you choose to meet it. Will you back your claims, or withdraw them? (Or will you make a weak excuse?) Already have backed them; you are the only one who has provided zero evidence. No, Kevin. I offered you a challenge and you immediately claimed that you couldn't meet it but had terrible travel constraints. Still, I'll meet you in New York on the 5th if you prefer. You are, on Saturday 19th. Come on, run to me baby. Anytime, just let me know when. July 5th. I'll pass more details as I have them. You sad sack of excrement. Yes, that *really* sums up your intellectual calibre, doesn't it? -- He thinks too much: such men are dangerous. Julius Caesar I:2 Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk |
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"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... In message , Kevin Brooks writes "Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... snip Since you saw fit to snip most of the quotes of your own words I presented to you to support the accuracy of the "standard playbook" characterization of your argument, it is obvious there is little reason to continue showing you where your own words do indeed repeatedly convey that thought; it also points to the fact that continuing this discussion any further is a waste of effort, since you will just snip those items that prove your basic dishonesty. But... Then you had the unmitigated gall to come back in this thread and claim you *never* attributed that paraphrase directly to me-- No, I didn't. Where did I claim you said it? Remember, if it's a quote then it's traceable. ""It's not about the WMD". I can only go by what you say, Kevin...Your claiming they were irrelevant was something of a hint." Your meaning was quite clear, and your subsequent "apology" did not really address your misstep. The fact that you *continue* to claim yopu never did this is just topping on top of the cake. snip See where these baseless claims have been addressed earlier in this missive. Now, again--you asked, "Which post of yours did I attribute it to? Where did I say that the words in those inverted commas were yours and yours alone?" I gave you your answer, also in your own words. And proved conclusively that you're attributing statements to me that I never made. So you are now saying that the Google record of your 18 May statement, ""It's not about the WMD". I can only go by what you say, Kevin...Your claiming they were irrelevant was something of a hint" was not your words. Fine. Some nefarious fellow intent upon defaming your name must have jumped in and made that statement. snip And, getting to the root of the matter, and about the only thing left to be determined, as it is apparent that continual verbal discourse is a wasted effort... In my experience, a fellow like you who has to resort to repeatedly lying in order to try and cover his own missteps, usually is the sort who lacks the courage for such encounters--but you are welcome to prove otherwise. If you want to put it like that? Fort Widley courtyard, dawn, Saturday 19 June. Gauntlet's down. I said when you are in the area; I have never been to the UK, and don't see any chance of going. Oh, how *marvellously* convenient for you. I told you where this would have to occur up front--odd how you then lieterally *jumped* at the opportunity of making your invitation one that you already knew was beyond my reach. Gosh, how gutsy you are! You, OTOH have indicated that you make periodic visits to the DC area, right? No, but I was on holiday there in 2000. I'll be in New York on the 5th of July, though. That is close enough for me--I am more than willing to do a little drivetime if it makes you happy. Seriously. I believe that makes it "put up or shut up" time to you, does it not? Certainly does. Shall I see you on the 5th? And will it be swords or pistols? As I said before, anytime--and I mean *anytime*, you screw up the courage and can get to the DC environs, let me know. You are the fellow who introduced this invitation--so I am assuming you will be quite happy to drive down for the show...unless you maybe lack the moral fibre to actually follow through? snip Meanwhile, the challenge is open if you choose to meet it. Will you back your claims, or withdraw them? (Or will you make a weak excuse?) Already have backed them; you are the only one who has provided zero evidence. No, Kevin. I offered you a challenge and you immediately claimed that you couldn't meet it but had terrible travel constraints. LOL! Yeah, right... sure. The response to your initial invite stands. Still, I'll meet you in New York on the 5th if you prefer. You are, on Saturday 19th. Come on, run to me baby. Anytime, just let me know when. July 5th. I'll pass more details as I have them. So you are not willing to follow through on your initial invite. Figures. But hey, as I said when you first brought this up, if you make it to the DC environs, let me know--only takes me an hour or two to get there. You sad sack of excrement. Yes, that *really* sums up your intellectual calibre, doesn't it? No, it more accurately sums up your situation. Drop by anytime. Brooks |
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In message , Kevin Brooks
writes "Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... In message , Kevin Brooks writes "Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... snip Since you saw fit to snip most of the quotes of your own words I presented to you to support the accuracy of the "standard playbook" characterization of your argument, it is obvious there is little reason to continue showing you where your own words do indeed repeatedly convey that thought; it also points to the fact that continuing this discussion any further is a waste of effort, since you will just snip those items that prove your basic dishonesty. What Kevin "accurately paraphrased" is that he alleged, I answered: he alleged, I answered: he alleged and I answered: and he has no reply. But... Then you had the unmitigated gall to come back in this thread and claim you *never* attributed that paraphrase directly to me-- No, I didn't. Where did I claim you said it? Remember, if it's a quote then it's traceable. ""It's not about the WMD". I can only go by what you say, Kevin...Your claiming they were irrelevant was something of a hint." Your meaning was quite clear, and your subsequent "apology" did not really address your misstep. The fact that you *continue* to claim yopu never did this is just topping on top of the cake. And I replied, within 24 hours, that it was not a direct quotation any more than your "accurate paraphrases" (pshaw!) of other folks' words are, and apologised immediately for any misunderstanding. (Note that Kevin has wriggled around and eventually claimed I insulted and lied some other way from his original claim - and snipped out without reply the immediate retraction and apology for that, too) snip And proved conclusively that you're attributing statements to me that I never made. So you are now saying that the Google record of your 18 May statement, ""It's not about the WMD". I can only go by what you say, Kevin...Your claiming they were irrelevant was something of a hint" was not your words. No, I've never denied those words, and I've already apologised for any possible misinterpretation. Now, I note *you* have snipped out multiple examples of where you have falsely attributed words to me... how *remarkably* convenient! I notice, also, you've neatly elided your repeated claims of "Nobody said this!" where they were met with published speeches, and "This never happened!" with the cites that it did. So, just who's being dishonest here, Kevin? If you want to put it like that? Fort Widley courtyard, dawn, Saturday 19 June. Gauntlet's down. I said when you are in the area; I have never been to the UK, and don't see any chance of going. Oh, how *marvellously* convenient for you. I told you where this would have to occur up front- Kevin, you issued the challenge. "As to cowardly, the next time you are in the area drop me a line--I'll be more than happy to let you address that issue in person, in any form you may so choose, if that is what you really want." Kevin Brooks, June 8 2004. By rule and tradition, the challengee gets to choose time, place and weapons. There is a sizeable body of tradition on the matter. That you are as ignorant as you are dishonest is no surprise. It is also no surprise that you avoid the first invitation, and now the second. Indeed, when it turns out I'm willing to cross the Atlantic to meet you, you're suddenly unable to even leave the environs of Washington DC. Not unexpected, but hardly an indication of either your courage or your certainty. -odd how you then lieterally *jumped* at the opportunity of making your invitation one that you already knew was beyond my reach. Gosh, how gutsy you are! I played it according to tradition. Then when you claimed it was too hard for you to travel, I offered to meet you on the far side of an ocean. You're still running away. What conclusions shall we draw from this matter? Certainly does. Shall I see you on the 5th? And will it be swords or pistols? As I said before, anytime--and I mean *anytime*, you screw up the courage and can get to the DC environs, let me know. In other words, when invited to defend your words, you found it inconvenient because it was the wrong country. Then, when the opportunity was offered in your own country, even on the correct coast, you found it inconvenient because it was the wrong state. Shall we pursue this spiral downwards? Must I pursue you through excuses that I'm in the wrong city, the wrong suburb, the wrong neighbourhood, and eventually that you'd give me satisfaction if only I were not on the wrong side of the street? You are the fellow who introduced this invitation-- Indeed, and I note with amusement your efforts to avoid it - while loudly trumpeting your enthusiasm. If I'm taking a three-thousand mile trip, can't you match even a fraction of that? so I am assuming you will be quite happy to drive down for the show...unless you maybe lack the moral fibre to actually follow through? As I said, it's a working visit so I'm constrained for time. (Fly in on the 5th and the ship leaves on the 6th, and time and carriers wait for no man). So, no long drives, but I'm willing to fit you in. And you've indicated that you lack the means or the will to visit the UK (or, perhaps, just the courage). Still, never fear. There will be a third date and time for you to run away from. Perhaps even a fourth. No, Kevin. I offered you a challenge and you immediately claimed that you couldn't meet it but had terrible travel constraints. LOL! Yeah, right... sure. The response to your initial invite stands. Of course: on current form, I could knock at your door and you'd claim it was "too far" to meet me. July 5th. I'll pass more details as I have them. So you are not willing to follow through on your initial invite. Figures. You've been offered and evaded two places and dates so far. What excuse will you use for the third? -- He thinks too much: such men are dangerous. Julius Caesar I:2 Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk |
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"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... In message , Kevin Brooks writes "Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... In message , Kevin Brooks writes "Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... snip Since you saw fit to snip most of the quotes of your own words I presented to you to support the accuracy of the "standard playbook" characterization of your argument, it is obvious there is little reason to continue showing you where your own words do indeed repeatedly convey that thought; it also points to the fact that continuing this discussion any further is a waste of effort, since you will just snip those items that prove your basic dishonesty. What Kevin "accurately paraphrased" is that he alleged, I answered: he alleged, I answered: he alleged and I answered: and he has no reply. Sure you did. Just keep believeing that tripe.... But... Then you had the unmitigated gall to come back in this thread and claim you *never* attributed that paraphrase directly to me-- No, I didn't. Where did I claim you said it? Remember, if it's a quote then it's traceable. ""It's not about the WMD". I can only go by what you say, Kevin...Your claiming they were irrelevant was something of a hint." Your meaning was quite clear, and your subsequent "apology" did not really address your misstep. The fact that you *continue* to claim yopu never did this is just topping on top of the cake. And I replied, within 24 hours, that it was not a direct quotation any more than your "accurate paraphrases" (pshaw!) of other folks' words are, and apologised immediately for any misunderstanding. But you persisted in claiming it was an accurate paraphrase--it was not. The ones I have presented of your arguments, OTOH, are supported by your own past statements. (Note that Kevin has wriggled around and eventually claimed I insulted and lied some other way from his original claim - and snipped out without reply the immediate retraction and apology for that, to snip And proved conclusively that you're attributing statements to me that I never made. So you are now saying that the Google record of your 18 May statement, ""It's not about the WMD". I can only go by what you say, Kevin...Your claiming they were irrelevant was something of a hint" was not your words. No, I've never denied those words, and I've already apologised for any possible misinterpretation. Now, I note *you* have snipped out multiple examples of where you have falsely attributed words to me... how *remarkably* convenient! I notice, also, you've neatly elided your repeated claims of "Nobody said this!" where they were met with published speeches, and "This never happened!" with the cites that it did. So, just who's being dishonest here, Kevin? You are, and I am growing tired of pointing that out to you, as it obviously serves no purpose. I do have one regret in this case--I should have just plonked your lying ass on 18 May, and saved us both the effort of this current meaningless "he said, she said". You are what you are, and there is going to be no changing that. If you want to put it like that? Fort Widley courtyard, dawn, Saturday 19 June. Gauntlet's down. I said when you are in the area; I have never been to the UK, and don't see any chance of going. Oh, how *marvellously* convenient for you. I told you where this would have to occur up front- Kevin, you issued the challenge. "As to cowardly, the next time you are in the area drop me a line--I'll be more than happy to let you address that issue in person, in any form you may so choose, if that is what you really want." Kevin Brooks, June 8 2004. Yes, I did. Though I kind of took that "coward" bit of yours as a challenge in and of itself. By rule and tradition, the challengee gets to choose time, place and weapons. There is a sizeable body of tradition on the matter. That you are as ignorant as you are dishonest is no surprise. Sorry, I have never had any plans to visit the UK, so if you are really interested, you'll have to come to the DC area; that is enough of a trip for me to make. It is also no surprise that you avoid the first invitation, and now the second. Indeed, when it turns out I'm willing to cross the Atlantic to meet you, you're suddenly unable to even leave the environs of Washington DC. Not unexpected, but hardly an indication of either your courage or your certainty. Again, my original invite stands. Let's see, we have Paul, who has mentioned visiting the DC area before, which would seem to pose a realistic possibility of him doing so again. Versus me, who has never been to the UK, and is extremely unlikely to ever have the opportunity of going there in the future. Now which sounds like a more sincere invitation--the one to the guy who has frequently commented about his trip(s?) to the DC area, or the one offered to guy who has never visited your own stately shores? Methinks you were not actually sincere in that offer about Fort whatever next weekend...please, say it ain't so? -odd how you then lieterally *jumped* at the opportunity of making your invitation one that you already knew was beyond my reach. Gosh, how gutsy you are! I played it according to tradition. Then when you claimed it was too hard for you to travel, I offered to meet you on the far side of an ocean. You're still running away. What conclusions shall we draw from this matter? Go ahead and hide behind your tradition; I'll still be waiting in VA to make that trek to DC at your leisure. Certainly does. Shall I see you on the 5th? And will it be swords or pistols? As I said before, anytime--and I mean *anytime*, you screw up the courage and can get to the DC environs, let me know. In other words, when invited to defend your words, you found it inconvenient because it was the wrong country. Gee, again, how sincere was that offer? Then, when the opportunity was offered in your own country, even on the correct coast, you found it inconvenient because it was the wrong state. You could go along with my original offer--anytime. Shall we pursue this spiral downwards? Must I pursue you through excuses that I'm in the wrong city, the wrong suburb, the wrong neighbourhood, and eventually that you'd give me satisfaction if only I were not on the wrong side of the street? No, I'd even be willing to meet you halfway (to NYC, that is); do you have a suitable alternative in mind? You are the fellow who introduced this invitation-- Indeed, and I note with amusement your efforts to avoid it - while loudly trumpeting your enthusiasm. I have offered to meet you halfway now. Ball's in your court, Captain Courageous. If I'm taking a three-thousand mile trip, can't you match even a fraction of that? See above. so I am assuming you will be quite happy to drive down for the show...unless you maybe lack the moral fibre to actually follow through? As I said, it's a working visit so I'm constrained for time. (Fly in on the 5th and the ship leaves on the 6th, and time and carriers wait for no man). So, no long drives, but I'm willing to fit you in. Oh, so now you have already started building your newest excuse. Halfway? And you've indicated that you lack the means or the will to visit the UK (or, perhaps, just the courage). Just never had any plans to do so, now or in the past--but you already knew that, didn't you? Which is whaty that whole Fort whatever on 19 June was just your psing for the stage? Again, halfway? Still, never fear. There will be a third date and time for you to run away from. Perhaps even a fourth. No, Kevin. I offered you a challenge and you immediately claimed that you couldn't meet it but had terrible travel constraints. LOL! Yeah, right... sure. The response to your initial invite stands. Of course: on current form, I could knock at your door and you'd claim it was "too far" to meet me. No, not as I have offered to meet you halfway to NYC. July 5th. I'll pass more details as I have them. So you are not willing to follow through on your initial invite. Figures. You've been offered and evaded two places and dates so far. What excuse will you use for the third? The offer stands--ball's in your court. Brooks |
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In message , Kevin Brooks
writes "Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... What Kevin "accurately paraphrased" is that he alleged, I answered: he alleged, I answered: he alleged and I answered: and he has no reply. Sure you did. Just keep believeing that tripe.... Let's take a single example of that "tripe". Kevin said, this very thread, June 9th - "Uhmmm...again, where in the White House's case against Iraq did you find thaose descriptive terms? Eh?" And I replied that "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." President G W Bush, March 17 2003 "Some ask how urgent this danger is to America and the world. The danger is already significant, and it only grows worse with time. If we know Saddam Hussein has dangerous weapons today -- and we do... Iraq could decide on any given day to provide a biological or chemical weapon to a terrorist group or individual terrorists... Saddam Hussein still has chemical and biological weapons and is increasing his capabilities to make more. And he is moving ever closer to developing a nuclear weapon...." President G W Bush, October 17, 2002 So, either President Bush's terms were not "descriptive" of an immediate and imminent WME threat from Iraq, or Kevin is at best terribly mistaken and at worst lying through his teeth. There are plenty more - it's not too surprising Mr Brooks chose to run away from them, any more than it's a surprise that he's so amnesiac about his own words and claims. And I replied, within 24 hours, that it was not a direct quotation any more than your "accurate paraphrases" (pshaw!) of other folks' words are, and apologised immediately for any misunderstanding. But you persisted in claiming it was an accurate paraphrase--it was not. It was as accurate as any of yours. The ones I have presented of your arguments, OTOH, are supported by your own past statements. As are yours. You yourself repeatedly claim that it's simply not possible to work out the priorities: therefore how can WMEs be an issue? Show me evidence that they entered into the thinking: you claimed several times that there *was* no reasoning and no analysis involved. According to you, your own leaders never claimed WME were a factor (though I provided the transcripts of the speeches where they said just that - a useful point by which to judge any of your claims, despite your hasty evasions). According to you, it's not possible to identify reasons for the conflict, and none of the factors precipitating conflict can be identified. Yet, apparently, with all that loudly-claimed and oft-cited certainty... you're able to insist that WME *were* a signficant reason. So, which of your claims is false? Is it possible to break out a reason with some idea of its relative importance, or is it not? On the one hand, you insist that such analysis is utterly impossible: yet on the other hand, you insist that you have conducted just such an analysis and concluded that WMEs were, in fact, a significant factor. Which leads us to the question 'how significant'? More or less so than alleged links to al-Qaeda? More or less so than sponsorship of Palestinian terrorists? More or less important than Saddam's bad table manners? On the one hand you're calling me a liar for doubting your judgement of this prioritisation: on the other, you loudly and repeatedly insist that no such prioritisation is possible. Either way means you've lied repeatedly - I'm curious which set of statements you're choosing to repudiate. No, I've never denied those words, and I've already apologised for any possible misinterpretation. Now, I note *you* have snipped out multiple examples of where you have falsely attributed words to me... how *remarkably* convenient! I notice, also, you've neatly elided your repeated claims of "Nobody said this!" where they were met with published speeches, and "This never happened!" with the cites that it did. So, just who's being dishonest here, Kevin? You are, and I am growing tired of pointing that out to you, as it obviously serves no purpose. I do have one regret in this case--I should have just plonked your lying ass on 18 May, and saved us both the effort of this current meaningless "he said, she said". You are what you are, and there is going to be no changing that. Indeed. I'm sticking to the truth and you're running away from it as fast as you can - no wonder you wish you'd just gone for a blustering killfile. When challenged, intellectually or physically, you keep on retreating until in the end you abandon everything in desperation. (Are you *sure* you're not Fred McCall under an assumed name?) Kevin, you issued the challenge. "As to cowardly, the next time you are in the area drop me a line--I'll be more than happy to let you address that issue in person, in any form you may so choose, if that is what you really want." Kevin Brooks, June 8 2004. Yes, I did. Though I kind of took that "coward" bit of yours as a challenge in and of itself. No, that was an *insult*. The challenge is the response to a slight, a blow, or an imputation against a lady's honour. By rule and tradition, the challengee gets to choose time, place and weapons. There is a sizeable body of tradition on the matter. That you are as ignorant as you are dishonest is no surprise. Sorry, I have never had any plans to visit the UK, so if you are really interested, you'll have to come to the DC area; that is enough of a trip for me to make. How *remarkably* convenient. So, you're ignorant of the centuries of history and the evolved traditions, you're confident that *you* will never come near me, and now you insist that I should travel thousands of miles to a few score for you. And when I offer to meet you on your own continent, your own seaboard, even closer than original plans would have allowed (I was originally bound for Charleston but matters changed) you continued to find reasons why you were suddenly able to match your words with deeds. It is also no surprise that you avoid the first invitation, and now the second. Indeed, when it turns out I'm willing to cross the Atlantic to meet you, you're suddenly unable to even leave the environs of Washington DC. Not unexpected, but hardly an indication of either your courage or your certainty. Again, my original invite stands. Let's see, we have Paul, who has mentioned visiting the DC area before, Indeed, once, in 2000, on a personally-funded vacation. (I was in New Orleans last year, again at my own expense. Several planned trips to the US have since fallen through for assorted reasons, though I did put in a very productive week in Halifax further north) I note with some amusement how this story changes. "You, OTOH have indicated that you make periodic visits to the DC area" (Kevin Brooks, June 9) Guess what? This is another one of Kevin's "accurate paraphrases". which would seem to pose a realistic possibility of him doing so again. Not that much tactical operational analysis in the DC area, sadly. Though the Navy Yard gives me some hope of seeing what excuse Kevin uses for avoiding the next encounter. Versus me, who has never been to the UK, and is extremely unlikely to ever have the opportunity of going there in the future. Which makes flinging out challenges to UK residents *ever* so cheap and convenient, doesn't it, since you insist they have to come to you (ever closer, as your own evasions prove) to test your words with steel? Now which sounds like a more sincere invitation--the one to the guy who has frequently commented about his trip(s?) to the DC area, His single vacation, yes. or the one offered to guy who has never visited your own stately shores? So, you're challenging because you're sure you'll never be tested: and evading as fast as you can when offered opportunity. Methinks you were not actually sincere in that offer about Fort whatever next weekend...please, say it ain't so? Completely sincere. It's conveniently located for me, ninety minutes by easy transport (train and taxi) from London for you, and has the advantages of being a flat, open field where we shouldn't be interrrupted at that hour. And as a side benefit, the view over the Solent is superb. Why, are you changing your mind and offering to present yourself? Or will I have a lonely wait, with just a sunrise for company? I played it according to tradition. Then when you claimed it was too hard for you to travel, I offered to meet you on the far side of an ocean. You're still running away. What conclusions shall we draw from this matter? Go ahead and hide behind your tradition; I'll still be waiting in VA to make that trek to DC at your leisure. Of course you will, Kevin. Until I find myself coming to DC, where you'll find you've got urgent business elsewhere or some other pressing reason to miss the appointment. In other words, when invited to defend your words, you found it inconvenient because it was the wrong country. Gee, again, how sincere was that offer? Completely. Both of them. Now, how sincere was that original challenge, given your evident enthusiasm to carry it through and your obvious willingness to put action behind your words? Then, when the opportunity was offered in your own country, even on the correct coast, you found it inconvenient because it was the wrong state. You could go along with my original offer--anytime. The trouble with that, Kevin, is that you're running away as fast as I can chase you down. Shall we pursue this spiral downwards? Must I pursue you through excuses that I'm in the wrong city, the wrong suburb, the wrong neighbourhood, and eventually that you'd give me satisfaction if only I were not on the wrong side of the street? No, I'd even be willing to meet you halfway (to NYC, that is); do you have a suitable alternative in mind? Not immediately to hand, given that it seems I must pursue you in this matter (doesn't *that* indicate your honesty and conviction!). But if opportunity offers, then I'll give you another chance to demonstrate your cowardice. Indeed, and I note with amusement your efforts to avoid it - while loudly trumpeting your enthusiasm. I have offered to meet you halfway now. "Halfway" is mid-Atlantic, Kevin. It's worth remembering that this "halfway" offer (halfway between NYC and DC, not the US and UK... funny how Kevin's claiming to be the brave and determined one here) came only after Kevin heard I was pressed for time on the 5th. If I'm taking a three-thousand mile trip, can't you match even a fraction of that? See above. In other words, "No, I'm too scared" (in a Brooksian 'accurate paraphrase') As I said, it's a working visit so I'm constrained for time. (Fly in on the 5th and the ship leaves on the 6th, and time and carriers wait for no man). So, no long drives, but I'm willing to fit you in. Oh, so now you have already started building your newest excuse. If you want to call it an excuse, *you* persuade a carrier task group to delay sailing. Halfway? Halfway is about thirty-five degrees West, and rather damp. I'm going very considerably further than that and you're still evading. If I'm covering thousands of miles, you can manage a few hundred if your honour is so wounded and your confidence so high. That it is evidently not... allows obvious conclusions to be drawn. And you've indicated that you lack the means or the will to visit the UK (or, perhaps, just the courage). Just never had any plans to do so, now or in the past--but you already knew that, didn't you? I didn't know anything about your travel habits (unlike you, who yet again made seriously erroneous claims and passed them off as truth), but I had a suspicion that your challenge was completely insincere and looked forward to testing it - and I had some tiny hope that you actually meant what you said. Which is whaty that whole Fort whatever on 19 June was just your psing for the stage? No, the old tradition that the challenged party chooses the ground. I am quite confident that you would never honour your challenge, but that doesn't change the fact that I'll do so. Shall I wait there for you? By tradition, you issued the challenge, you've been told when, where and how: attend, or forfeit. (Of course, this applied to men of honour, which is why I know you will not attend) But, it's a long trip, so I offered you something closer to home. And again it's too difficult for you. So, now we just have to wait until I find myself in the DC area to discover what your next reason why you can't follow your bluster through might be. Again, halfway? Okay, "halfway", but that'll be rather later - probably around the 10th at a very rough guess - and I presume you'll be swimming unless you find a mail buoy to cling to. Of course: on current form, I could knock at your door and you'd claim it was "too far" to meet me. No, not as I have offered to meet you halfway to NYC. After making sure you knew I lacked the time to do so. And yet *you* claim I'm making insincere offers? I'm sticking to what I can do: you're large on claims, but short on substance. I'll see you at Fort Widley on the 19th, or I'll see you in NYC on the 5th, or we'll wait to be amused by your next evasion. -- He thinks too much: such men are dangerous. Julius Caesar I:2 Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk |
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"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... In message , Kevin Brooks writes snip No, I'd even be willing to meet you halfway (to NYC, that is); do you have a suitable alternative in mind? Not immediately to hand, given that it seems I must pursue you in this matter (doesn't *that* indicate your honesty and conviction!). But if opportunity offers, then I'll give you another chance to demonstrate your cowardice. Offer stands. Indeed, and I note with amusement your efforts to avoid it - while loudly trumpeting your enthusiasm. I have offered to meet you halfway now. "Halfway" is mid-Atlantic, Kevin. It's worth remembering that this "halfway" offer (halfway between NYC and DC, not the US and UK... funny how Kevin's claiming to be the brave and determined one here) came only after Kevin heard I was pressed for time on the 5th. Sounds like you are the one making the excuses here. DC was unacceptable to you; now I guess Philadelphia or thereabouts is equally and conveniently also unacceptable. Figures. If I'm taking a three-thousand mile trip, can't you match even a fraction of that? See above. In other words, "No, I'm too scared" (in a Brooksian 'accurate paraphrase') The offer still stands. As I said, it's a working visit so I'm constrained for time. (Fly in on the 5th and the ship leaves on the 6th, and time and carriers wait for no man). So, no long drives, but I'm willing to fit you in. Oh, so now you have already started building your newest excuse. If you want to call it an excuse, *you* persuade a carrier task group to delay sailing. And doubtless if i had offered to meet you at the airport gate you'd have found some other excuse. Halfway? Halfway is about thirty-five degrees West, and rather damp. I'm going very considerably further than that and you're still evading. If I'm covering thousands of miles, you can manage a few hundred if your honour is so wounded and your confidence so high. That it is evidently not... allows obvious conclusions to be drawn. Yeah--that you really never had any intent whatsoever of following through. Again, that is about par for the course with you. And you've indicated that you lack the means or the will to visit the UK (or, perhaps, just the courage). Just never had any plans to do so, now or in the past--but you already knew that, didn't you? I didn't know anything about your travel habits (unlike you, who yet again made seriously erroneous claims and passed them off as truth), but I had a suspicion that your challenge was completely insincere and looked forward to testing it - and I had some tiny hope that you actually meant what you said. Phily is not such a long trip from NYC, now is it? Which is whaty that whole Fort whatever on 19 June was just your psing for the stage? No, the old tradition that the challenged party chooses the ground. I am quite confident that you would never honour your challenge, but that doesn't change the fact that I'll do so. Shall I wait there for you? And choosing ground that you know I have never visited, and have never indicated I would visit, was oh-so-convenient. Yeah, right. By tradition, you issued the challenge, you've been told when, where and how: attend, or forfeit. (Of course, this applied to men of honour, which is why I know you will not attend) Can't drag yourself on to Phily; too bad. But, it's a long trip, so I offered you something closer to home. And again it's too difficult for you. So, now we just have to wait until I find myself in the DC area to discover what your next reason why you can't follow your bluster through might be. Anytime. Again, halfway? Okay, "halfway", but that'll be rather later - probably around the 10th at a very rough guess - and I presume you'll be swimming unless you find a mail buoy to cling to. Of course: on current form, I could knock at your door and you'd claim it was "too far" to meet me. No, not as I have offered to meet you halfway to NYC. After making sure you knew I lacked the time to do so. And yet *you* claim I'm making insincere offers? I'm sticking to what I can do: you're large on claims, but short on substance. You have plenty of time. Getting from NYC to Phily and back by train on the same day is no problemo. I'll see you at Fort Widley on the 19th, or I'll see you in NYC on the 5th, or we'll wait to be amused by your next evasion. Yeah, right. Brooks |
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In message , Kevin Brooks
writes "Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... Not immediately to hand, given that it seems I must pursue you in this matter (doesn't *that* indicate your honesty and conviction!). But if opportunity offers, then I'll give you another chance to demonstrate your cowardice. Offer stands. Until I close the range again, whereupon "halfway" will be redefined (again) and more reasons why you can't present yourself will be extracted. Unless, of course, you simply cut it completely and "accurately paraphrase" it as a refusal. "Halfway" is mid-Atlantic, Kevin. It's worth remembering that this "halfway" offer (halfway between NYC and DC, not the US and UK... funny how Kevin's claiming to be the brave and determined one here) came only after Kevin heard I was pressed for time on the 5th. Sounds like you are the one making the excuses here. DC was unacceptable to you; Indeed, since I don't go there regularly - though at least I've visited a few years ago. However, if I have opportunity I'll seek you out. I compare with amusement the difference in travel required: I'm "a coward" for crossing the Atlantic, you're bravely refusing to manage a relatively short hop. Just cut and "accurately paraphrase" as you see fit, of course. now I guess Philadelphia or thereabouts is equally and conveniently also unacceptable. Figures. I'm travelling on taxpayer's money, Kevin - unlike you, who appears to be unwilling to travel at all. In other words, "No, I'm too scared" (in a Brooksian 'accurate paraphrase') The offer still stands. No, it doesn't, because every time I make it you run away. You challenged, I gave you time and place, you cried off (hardly unexpected). I gave you another time and place much closer to home, and you cried off again. Now, apparently, nothing less than Philadelphia will do. Okay, but it wasn't in my travel plans. (There's a question to be asked about someone whose bravado is in inverse proportion to range... time will tell how it plays. So far I see one person trying to accommodate and the challenger making excuse after excuse) If you want to call it an excuse, *you* persuade a carrier task group to delay sailing. And doubtless if i had offered to meet you at the airport gate you'd have found some other excuse. No, I'd have wondered how you'd persuade the bystanders to ignore the debate that followed. (Why do you think I chose the original location? Easy to find and reach, yet not too busy at the appointed time, and also open and flat with good footing) I'm going very considerably further than that and you're still evading. If I'm covering thousands of miles, you can manage a few hundred if your honour is so wounded and your confidence so high. That it is evidently not... allows obvious conclusions to be drawn. Yeah--that you really never had any intent whatsoever of following through. Quite. Is that another "accurate paraphrase"? Again, that is about par for the course with you. Indeed. I return your challenge and you either ignore it unanswered or find reasons why you can travel shorter and shorter distances to honour your words. I didn't know anything about your travel habits (unlike you, who yet again made seriously erroneous claims and passed them off as truth), but I had a suspicion that your challenge was completely insincere and looked forward to testing it - and I had some tiny hope that you actually meant what you said. Phily is not such a long trip from NYC, now is it? I've got a ship to catch, which is why I'm required to keep it close this time. Never fear: there'll be a third chance to run away. No, the old tradition that the challenged party chooses the ground. I am quite confident that you would never honour your challenge, but that doesn't change the fact that I'll do so. Shall I wait there for you? And choosing ground that you know I have never visited, and have never indicated I would visit was oh-so-convenient. Yeah, right. I've never been to NYC either, and never indicated any willingness to do so (because I never wanted to) but I'll meet you there. I've never been to Philadelphia, but apparently I'm meant to leap into the unknown there as well. Can't make it on this trip, but there may be other opportunities. Kevin, do you ever read what you write? I'm offering to meet you on unfamiliar ground of your choosing, since you refuse to travel. If I were minded to withdraw rather than enjoy your writhings, I'd point out that you just proved that I could not trust *your* choice of ground - yet I'm chasing you through your evasions. You want to prove *your* sincerity? Come to the UK and we'll fight. Oh, I forgot, you can't come here and that's not debatable, so I have to come to the US. Except not just to the US but to the right part of the US. No, *really* close. Sounds like you're making claims you can't back up. (I'd offer evidence, but you'd just cut it and pretend it didn't exist) By tradition, you issued the challenge, you've been told when, where and how: attend, or forfeit. (Of course, this applied to men of honour, which is why I know you will not attend) Can't drag yourself on to Phily; too bad. Indeed - on this trip. However, at least I'm planning to drag myself to your country and have witnessed your evasions: while your boasts become increasingly desperate and limited as geographical proximity is eroded. Out of interest, and since you claimed it, why is "ground that you know I have never visited, and have never indicated I would visit" meant to be any more acceptable to me than it should be to you? (Find me evidence that I've ever been to either New York City or Philedelphia or anywhere in between) Or are you just lying through your teeth yet again? Again, by the Old Ways of these matters there's a few centuries of tradition that left the challenged party to choose the ground: the challenger then decided whether to pursue the matter or not once the details were known. Seems we have *your* answer... But, it's a long trip, so I offered you something closer to home. And again it's too difficult for you. So, now we just have to wait until I find myself in the DC area to discover what your next reason why you can't follow your bluster through might be. Anytime. No, just until you get offered Philadelphia - and then we find what the *next* problem is. (Note that I'm less troubled by "ground that you know I have never visited, and have never indicated I would visit" than you; perhaps to simplify matters you should simply provide a list of those places you *would* be willing to make yourself available?) After making sure you knew I lacked the time to do so. And yet *you* claim I'm making insincere offers? I'm sticking to what I can do: you're large on claims, but short on substance. You have plenty of time. I do? Arrive around three in the afternoon, need to be on ship by end of working day. Getting from NYC to Phily and back by train on the same day is no problemo. My map says differently. (Or I could fly out on the 4th. Yeah, right, that'll be a money-saving exercise with no cheaper alternative.) I'll see you at Fort Widley on the 19th, or I'll see you in NYC on the 5th, or we'll wait to be amused by your next evasion. Yeah, right. Indeed. It seems amusement is in order. -- He thinks too much: such men are dangerous. Julius Caesar I:2 Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk |
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"Vaughn" wrote in message
I still haven't figured out what Iraq is all about, but it wasn't 9-11 and it has little or nothing to do with terrorism. Maybe changing the Middle East, through military action when necessary, is the essence of the war on terror. In addition, I wouldn't underestimate the extent of Saddam's polarizing influence on Arab public opinion at large. An extra 10 years of Saddam in power, speaking to the Arab masses, are probably more damaging in that sense than a 2 years occupation followed by the establishment of a democratic regime. -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG |
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In article , Chad Irby
wrote: In article , Howard Berkowitz wrote: In article , Chad Irby wrote: So which is more likely? That someone hid a pile of chemical weapons (a medium-sized arsenal of the things would fit in a building the size of a house) in a country the size of California, versus your contention that they didn't have any and were complying with the UN sanctions? Or something in between. There were some prototypes hidden away, and one or more was given to people setting up IEDs. ...but the people handing them out didn't bother to mention that they needed to be fired out of a cannon to work? It's literally possible they didn't know, if their role was "Hey Achmed, do me a favor and bury this in your garden." |
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