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#21
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IAP without inbound course?
"Jose" wrote in message news Then count me in. I was never taught the procedure; I asked here some time ago and practiced it on my own. However, my training is not "seriously lacking". The DME arcs were not around much (DME was not in the aircraft either) when I took my training. I've kept up, but one cannot keep up with what one does not know to keep up with, and some of those things are obscure "gotchas". DME arcs were much more common years ago than they are today. |
#22
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IAP without inbound course?
Not a bad skill to brush up on during an IPC or something. I usually
start doing them about 10 DME from the VOR once I'm in the grove turn inwards to 8 DME and try again, going successively closer until you're really cranking around. I've never had to fly one in real life though. Robert Steven P. McNicoll wrote: "Jose" wrote in message news Then count me in. I was never taught the procedure; I asked here some time ago and practiced it on my own. However, my training is not "seriously lacking". The DME arcs were not around much (DME was not in the aircraft either) when I took my training. I've kept up, but one cannot keep up with what one does not know to keep up with, and some of those things are obscure "gotchas". DME arcs were much more common years ago than they are today. |
#23
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IAP without inbound course?
Jose wrote:
There is only one such IAP in the country (probably the world). If, however, you mean most pilots don't know how to fly DME ARC initial approach segments, then their training is seriously lacking. Then count me in. I was never taught the procedure; I asked here some time ago and practiced it on my own. However, my training is not "seriously lacking". The DME arcs were not around much (DME was not in the aircraft either) when I took my training. I've kept up, but one cannot keep up with what one does not know to keep up with, and some of those things are obscure "gotchas". Jose The procedure for flying DME ARCs was in the old instrument flying handbook, both with and without an RMI. I was never taught the procedure, either, when I obtained my instrument rating. But, as a professional CFI-I, I became proficient in their use and how to teach them as soon as it became apparent (circa late 1960s) that they better be part of the proficient instrument pilot's toolkit. |
#24
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IAP without inbound course?
The track on the arc is +- 1 NM, it can be done closer.
I've flown them in actual, no radar approach control used the arc as a means to get required sep. If you lead the initial turn about 1 mile, you should roll out pretty close. Like a lot of IFR training, procedures that are taught may never be used in real life, such as time/distance to station by bearing change. -- James H. Macklin ATP,CFI,A&P -- The people think the Constitution protects their rights; But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome. some support http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties. "Sam Spade" wrote in message news:6OV2g.174009$bm6.4021@fed1read04... | Jose wrote: | There is only one such IAP in the country (probably the world). If, | however, you mean most pilots don't know how to fly DME ARC initial | approach segments, then their training is seriously lacking. | | | Then count me in. I was never taught the procedure; I asked here some | time ago and practiced it on my own. However, my training is not | "seriously lacking". The DME arcs were not around much (DME was not in | the aircraft either) when I took my training. I've kept up, but one | cannot keep up with what one does not know to keep up with, and some of | those things are obscure "gotchas". | | Jose | The procedure for flying DME ARCs was in the old instrument flying | handbook, both with and without an RMI. | | I was never taught the procedure, either, when I obtained my instrument | rating. But, as a professional CFI-I, I became proficient in their use | and how to teach them as soon as it became apparent (circa late 1960s) | that they better be part of the proficient instrument pilot's toolkit. |
#25
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IAP without inbound course?
DME arcs were much more common years ago than they are today.
Not for the bugsmashers I learned in. DME was stuff you'd see in somebody's personal high performance airplane, as was an intercom. Jose -- The price of freedom is... well... freedom. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#26
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IAP without inbound course?
"Jose" wrote in message om... Not for the bugsmashers I learned in. DME was stuff you'd see in somebody's personal high performance airplane, as was an intercom. DME arcs were more common on IAPs years ago than they are today. Many procedures that had them saw them removed in the early '80s. |
#27
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IAP without inbound course?
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Jose" wrote in message om... Not for the bugsmashers I learned in. DME was stuff you'd see in somebody's personal high performance airplane, as was an intercom. DME arcs were more common on IAPs years ago than they are today. Many procedures that had them saw them removed in the early '80s. As you say, many of them were removed in the late 80s or so. The present policy is: 4) Arc Initial Approach Segment. Requirements for arc initial approach segments must be fully evaluated to determine if this type of procedure entry is essential to the local traffic flow. Experience indicates that arc initial segments have been established at locations where they are used on a very limited basis or have not been fully accepted by the user. Long arcs and/or multiple arcs have contributed to undesirable chart clutter with minimum operational advantage. (a) An arc initial segment in a radar environment shall not be authorized unless it is operationally required. (b) When a DME arc segment of an approach lies along an arc which traverses an area of unusable radial information, the provisions of OA P 8200.1, paragraph 214.3 apply. (c) Arc initial segments should be authorized via the shortest routing when flight time can be reduced. (d) Arc initial segments shall be designated by CW for clockwise and CCW for counter-clockwise. (e) Arc initial segments shall be designed to satisfy requirements for executing the instrument approach. They shall NOT be established for the convenience of routing aircraft around a terminal area. (f) Arc initial segments less than 3 miles in length are not recommended. Use of aircraft heading to intercept the intermediate course should be considered as an alternate action in lieu of short arc segments. (g) DME Arc courses must be predicated only on collocated facilities providing azimuth and DME information. Arc initial segments must not be authorized on DME collocated with ILS or localizer facilities due to the lack of constant azimuth information. See Order 6050.32, appendix III, section 2 for collocation parameters. |
#28
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IAP without inbound course?
"Sam Spade" wrote in message news:0M53g.174115$bm6.54516@fed1read04... (c) Arc initial segments should be authorized via the shortest routing when flight time can be reduced. What does this mean? |
#29
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IAP without inbound course?
Stan Prevost wrote:
"Sam Spade" wrote in message news:0M53g.174115$bm6.54516@fed1read04... (c) Arc initial segments should be authorized via the shortest routing when flight time can be reduced. What does this mean? I'll give it my best guess: It is federal redundancy saying in another way that ARC initials are to be used only when they can reduce initial segment miles and only when it is the shortest distance within some particular quadrant. |
#30
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IAP without inbound course?
There is only one such IAP in the country (probably the world). If, however, you mean most pilots don't know how to fly DME ARC initial approach segments, then their training is seriously lacking. They used to have several DME ARC final approaches in Germany. The military especially used them as backup procedures to get to the airport if the base facilities were off the air, and sometimes as primary procedures if there weren't any on-field facilities. Most of the time the arc didn't line you up with the runway centerline unless the facility just happened to be perfectly abeam the airport. John |
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