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Need Hold Harmless Waver for Ultralight or Experimental Sale



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 17th 03, 05:28 AM
Larry Smith
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Default Need Hold Harmless Waver for Ultralight or Experimental Sale


"Ed Wischmeyer" wrote in message
...

Can someone direct me to a Hold Harmless / Waiver agreement for the same

of
an Ultralight or experimental aircraft?


The short answer is that such things aren't worth much, if anything,
because the buyer's family, relations, whatever, may not be bound by it.
If you're an EAA member, give them a call to discuss. I was surprised to
find out you're at more risk disassembling a plane and selling it as
parts than you are selling it intact. Talk to your lawyer, too. Also,
Avemco insurance covers you for liability for a number of years after
you sell the plane, if you had it insured with them.

Ed Wischmeyer


Let's say a divorced man bought a V8-powered Prescott Pusher, which is a
real sure-enough assbuster, and had his two adult sons sign (along with him)
an indemnity agreement with the seller. The latter is held harmless
thereby under the circumstances, since those children are the only parties
with a chance to sue in the case of the buyer getting his a** busted. At
least in this state, and probably in all the other ones since the sons are
the buyer's common law heirs.


  #2  
Old August 18th 03, 12:52 AM
Ken Sandyeggo
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Default

"Larry Smith" wrote in message ...
"Ed Wischmeyer" wrote in message
...

Can someone direct me to a Hold Harmless / Waiver agreement for the same

of
an Ultralight or experimental aircraft?


The short answer is that such things aren't worth much, if anything,
because the buyer's family, relations, whatever, may not be bound by it.
If you're an EAA member, give them a call to discuss. I was surprised to
find out you're at more risk disassembling a plane and selling it as
parts than you are selling it intact. Talk to your lawyer, too. Also,
Avemco insurance covers you for liability for a number of years after
you sell the plane, if you had it insured with them.

Ed Wischmeyer


Let's say a divorced man bought a V8-powered Prescott Pusher, which is a
real sure-enough assbuster, and had his two adult sons sign (along with him)
an indemnity agreement with the seller. The latter is held harmless
thereby under the circumstances, since those children are the only parties
with a chance to sue in the case of the buyer getting his a** busted. At
least in this state, and probably in all the other ones since the sons are
the buyer's common law heirs.



After the guy becomes a lawn dart, the kids will say..."We only signed
because dad asked us to so he could live his dream, and we loved our
dad so much, that we went ahead.....blah-blah-blah-blah-blah against
our better judgment. Dad coerced us into signing it through emotional
blackmail, therefore....blah-blah-blah-blah-blah.......so we think the
negligent builder should support us for the rest of our lives, because
we're too distraught to work or......blah-blah-blah-blah-blah.

Ken J. - SDCAUSA
  #3  
Old August 18th 03, 06:53 AM
Richard_Tonry
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Posts: n/a
Default

OK, OK, So what do people that sell aircraft do to protect themselves and
their families????


"Ken Sandyeggo" wrote in message
om...
"Larry Smith" wrote in message

...
"Ed Wischmeyer" wrote in message
...

Can someone direct me to a Hold Harmless / Waiver agreement for the

same
of
an Ultralight or experimental aircraft?

The short answer is that such things aren't worth much, if anything,
because the buyer's family, relations, whatever, may not be bound by

it.
If you're an EAA member, give them a call to discuss. I was surprised

to
find out you're at more risk disassembling a plane and selling it as
parts than you are selling it intact. Talk to your lawyer, too. Also,
Avemco insurance covers you for liability for a number of years after
you sell the plane, if you had it insured with them.

Ed Wischmeyer


Let's say a divorced man bought a V8-powered Prescott Pusher, which is a
real sure-enough assbuster, and had his two adult sons sign (along with

him)
an indemnity agreement with the seller. The latter is held harmless
thereby under the circumstances, since those children are the only

parties
with a chance to sue in the case of the buyer getting his a** busted.

At
least in this state, and probably in all the other ones since the sons

are
the buyer's common law heirs.



After the guy becomes a lawn dart, the kids will say..."We only signed
because dad asked us to so he could live his dream, and we loved our
dad so much, that we went ahead.....blah-blah-blah-blah-blah against
our better judgment. Dad coerced us into signing it through emotional
blackmail, therefore....blah-blah-blah-blah-blah.......so we think the
negligent builder should support us for the rest of our lives, because
we're too distraught to work or......blah-blah-blah-blah-blah.

Ken J. - SDCAUSA



  #4  
Old August 18th 03, 01:06 PM
Larry Smith
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Default


"Richard_Tonry" wrote in message
...
OK, OK, So what do people that sell aircraft do to protect themselves and
their families????


They do the best they can and don't look back because the facts are that
lawsuits against experimental aircraft builders by successors in interest
are verrrrrry rare.



"Ken Sandyeggo" blahblahblahblahblah in message
om...




  #5  
Old August 18th 03, 01:39 PM
Larry Smith
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Ron Wanttaja" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:28:16 -0400, "Larry Smith"
wrote:

Let's say a divorced man bought a V8-powered Prescott Pusher, which is a
real sure-enough assbuster, and had his two adult sons sign (along with

him)
an indemnity agreement with the seller. The latter is held harmless
thereby under the circumstances, since those children are the only

parties
with a chance to sue in the case of the buyer getting his a** busted.


...unless he busts it on someone else's property, at which point that
person could sue the original builder.


Well, Ray, rare but possible I guess. I'm talking about suits which have a
degree of possibility getting to the jury. In your hypothetical, it would
be doubtful.


Or the man's parents could sue

His children are his heirs at law, not his parents. If he's childless, a
parent may be an heir. I'm thinking of John Denver. Wasn't he childless?

, or
the man's mistress



Nope, she has no standing to sue, except maybe in CA or in a state with
common law marriage.


, or the man's business partner, or the man's
Guatemalan-kids-he-never-knew-he-had (ref. Alaska 261).


OK.

All it takes is a perception of a deep pocket, and SOMEONE will find an
excuse to sue the builder....


Getting a lawsuit to a jury is expensive but just getting it to the stage
where the judge dismisses it because the plaintiff is unable to connect the
injury to the defendant is not. Let's face it, Ray. Suits against
aircraft builders very improbable.

Ron "naturally protected" Wanttaja


Me too. Shallow pockets.


  #6  
Old August 18th 03, 02:28 PM
Ken Sandyeggo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Richard_Tonry" wrote in message ...
OK, OK, So what do people that sell aircraft do to protect themselves and
their families????


Cross their fingers. It's just as effective as any hold-harmless
contract ever written.




"Ken Sandyeggo" wrote in message
om...
"Larry Smith" wrote in message

...
"Ed Wischmeyer" wrote in message
...

Can someone direct me to a Hold Harmless / Waiver agreement for the

same
of
an Ultralight or experimental aircraft?

The short answer is that such things aren't worth much, if anything,
because the buyer's family, relations, whatever, may not be bound by

it.
If you're an EAA member, give them a call to discuss. I was surprised

to
find out you're at more risk disassembling a plane and selling it as
parts than you are selling it intact. Talk to your lawyer, too. Also,
Avemco insurance covers you for liability for a number of years after
you sell the plane, if you had it insured with them.

Ed Wischmeyer

Let's say a divorced man bought a V8-powered Prescott Pusher, which is a
real sure-enough assbuster, and had his two adult sons sign (along with

him)
an indemnity agreement with the seller. The latter is held harmless
thereby under the circumstances, since those children are the only

parties
with a chance to sue in the case of the buyer getting his a** busted.

At
least in this state, and probably in all the other ones since the sons

are
the buyer's common law heirs.



After the guy becomes a lawn dart, the kids will say..."We only signed
because dad asked us to so he could live his dream, and we loved our
dad so much, that we went ahead.....blah-blah-blah-blah-blah against
our better judgment. Dad coerced us into signing it through emotional
blackmail, therefore....blah-blah-blah-blah-blah.......so we think the
negligent builder should support us for the rest of our lives, because
we're too distraught to work or......blah-blah-blah-blah-blah.

Ken J. - SDCAUSA

  #7  
Old August 18th 03, 04:41 PM
Corrie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Richard_Tonry" wrote in message ...
OK, OK, So what do people that sell aircraft do to protect themselves and
their families????



Take a chain saw to the spar? Donate it to a museum and take a tax
deduction?

Evans quit selling plans for the VP-2 because another designer got
sued by the survivors of the passenger in a second-hand
(non-builder-flown) aircraft.
  #8  
Old August 18th 03, 05:01 PM
nafod40
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Posts: n/a
Default

Richard_Tonry wrote:

OK, OK, So what do people that sell aircraft do to protect themselves
and their families????


There's a good series of articles in the EAA's Sport Aviation, starting
December 1999, on this and other similar topics. Here's an excerpt from
the Feb. 2000 article, available via the EAA homebuilder web pages if you
are an EAA member...

"The real problem in selling homebuilt aircraft is that if the buyer dies
in an accident, the buyer's minor children could bring a lawsuit against
the seller for wrongful death. The children wouldn't have been a party to
the contract and, therefore, the release would not extend to them or
other members of the family who had not signed the release. Further, a
parent generally cannot sign to release a legal right of a minor child.

Another major deficiency with the release is that if an aircraft were to
crash in the middle of a neighborhood and cause injuries, death, or
property damage to others, the agreement would most likely afford no
protection.

Saddled with these realistic limitations, I still encourage the use of
the waiver and release because it creates an obstacle or a hurdle that
the aircraft's buyer must overcome in the event he decides to bring legal
action against the seller for some defective condition with the aircraft
that caused injuries. It's generally presumed that a responsible aircraft
owner would carry sufficient liability insurance to cover any damages
caused to the public as a whole."
  #9  
Old August 18th 03, 09:21 PM
John Anderson
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Ed Wischmeyer" wrote in message


I was surprised to
find out you're at more risk disassembling a plane and selling it as
parts than you are selling it intact.


I was always under the impresson that if you sold it as a non-flying
aircraft, or a bunch of parts, that you much more insulated against
lawsuits. By your comment this is not true ?????? Where did you hear this
from?
-JA


  #10  
Old August 19th 03, 02:47 AM
Ed Wischmeyer
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Posts: n/a
Default

"Ed Wischmeyer" wrote in message

I was surprised to
find out you're at more risk disassembling a plane and selling it as
parts than you are selling it intact.


I was always under the impresson that if you sold it as a non-flying
aircraft, or a bunch of parts, that you much more insulated against
lawsuits. By your comment this is not true ?????? Where did you hear this
from?



From what I consider an extremely reliable source. Don't recall the
specifics and context, though, or I would have quoted them.

Ed Wischmeyer
 




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