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Impact of Eurofighters in the Middle East



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 13th 03, 12:51 PM
Quant
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Default Impact of Eurofighters in the Middle East

(Jack White) wrote


I'm not an air force expert but it is clear from your post that
neither do you. Lets post your claims at rec.aviation.military and
watch the replies.


The Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudi Armed Forces the
capability maintain air superiority over any country in the Middle
East including Israel.


The Eurofighter Typhoon has the Meteor Mach4+ Ramjet Powered air to
air BVR missiles with OVER 100km range.



So? The US AIM-54 is operative for many years now and has a range of
at least 135 km. Why do you think that future American or Israeli made
missiles won't have those capabilities? Why do you think that in the
tiny Israeli airspace medium/long range missiles are more important
than short range ones? Israel clearly has superiority in the short
range. Also, successful tactics, good pilots and electronic measures
and counter measures are very important. While Israel will know the
exact characteristics of the systems Saudi Arabia and Egypt will have
and would fit its planes with appropriate counter measures, the Saudis
won't have a clue about Israel's unique technological modifications
because Israel is doing a lot of those modifications itself.


The Eurofighter Typhoon has the capability to destroy F-15Is and
F-16Is before the F-15I or F-16I even knows that the Eurofighter
Typhoon is there.



The info will probably come from early warning systems. Israel is
relying upon its own early warning systems while Saudi Arabia and
Egypt will have to rely upon inferior systems, unless the US will sell
its best technology to these Arab countries (and I doubt it will
happen). and again, electronic measures and counter measures are
important here and Israel's own industry gives it the technological
superiority over its neighbors.



The F-22 Raptor is the only aircraft that performs better than the
Eurofighter Typhoon in an air superiority capacity.
From what I've read I don't think even the JSF is up to the
Eurofighter Typhoon's level in the air superiority role.
The JSF would certainly be a huge improvement for Israel over F-15Is
and F-16Is though.
An Israeli pilot plus a JSF would probably be
better than a Saudi Pilot with a Eurofighter Typhoon, but with equal
pilots, ONLY the F-22 Raptor is better than the Eurofighter Typhoon
from what I've read.
F-22 Raptors are VERY EXPENSIVE, I don't know if Israel can afford
them even with free US taxpayer money.
I'd think that Israel would probably go for the JSF in the future.




Israel is already part of the JSF project.


Summing this subject I think that none of us could answer the
hypothetical question about air force superiority in the Middle East
in case the Arabs will have Eurofighters.

It is clear though that the Egyptian army, and maybe also the Saudi
Army pose a real threat on Israel. This is not new.
  #2  
Old September 13th 03, 04:38 PM
Big Dave
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Aaaah but isn't the AIM 54 being retired as the only plane that can carry it
is the F14 which is also nearing it max flying hours so will also be
retired?

BD


  #3  
Old September 13th 03, 04:56 PM
Peter Kemp
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On 13 Sep 2003 04:51:07 -0700, (Quant) wrote:

(Jack White) wrote


I'm not an air force expert but it is clear from your post that
neither do you. Lets post your claims at rec.aviation.military and
watch the replies.


The Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudi Armed Forces the
capability maintain air superiority over any country in the Middle
East including Israel.


The Eurofighter Typhoon has the Meteor Mach4+ Ramjet Powered air to
air BVR missiles with OVER 100km range.



So? The US AIM-54 is operative for many years now and has a range of
at least 135 km.


And is designed for shooting down non-manouvering bombers. It's also
being withdrawn from service, and the Israelis never even had aircraft
qualified for it, let alone any missiles.

The Meteor is still a few years from deployment though, but when it
arrives, it should handily outrange AMRAAM which is the longest spear
in the IAF armoury (Derby is alleged to have a much shorter range).

Why do you think that future American or Israeli made
missiles won't have those capabilities?


Because there are no current projects publicly announced that have the
capabilities of the Meteor. Could there be one in development? Maybe,
but there's no evidence for it.

Why do you think that in the
tiny Israeli airspace medium/long range missiles are more important
than short range ones?


Because you don't need to be in Israel's airspace to fire a missile!
The simple fact is that if you can launch at 20 miles, and you
opponent has to close to 10 miles, then he's already on the defensive
and at a disadvantage.

Israel clearly has superiority in the short
range.


Python 4 is indeed supposed to be very good. Now look up ASRAAM, which
is a handy little performer itself.

Also, successful tactics, good pilots and electronic measures
and counter measures are very important. While Israel will know the
exact characteristics of the systems Saudi Arabia and Egypt will have
and would fit its planes with appropriate counter measures, the Saudis
won't have a clue about Israel's unique technological modifications
because Israel is doing a lot of those modifications itself.


So you're saying the Saudi's and Egyptians have never heard of ELINT?
I find that difficult to believe. Whether they're any good at it is
another matter.

The Eurofighter Typhoon has the capability to destroy F-15Is and
F-16Is before the F-15I or F-16I even knows that the Eurofighter
Typhoon is there.



The info will probably come from early warning systems. Israel is
relying upon its own early warning systems while Saudi Arabia and
Egypt will have to rely upon inferior systems, unless the US will sell
its best technology to these Arab countries (and I doubt it will
happen).


Both Israel the Arab nations use US early warning systems, including
E-2s, and in the case of SA, E-3s (which the Israelis *don't* have.

Peter Kemp
  #4  
Old September 13th 03, 04:58 PM
Steven DeMonnin
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Default



Quant wrote:

(Jack White) wrote



I'm not an air force expert but it is clear from your post that
neither do you. Lets post your claims at rec.aviation.military and
watch the replies.



The Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudi Armed Forces the
capability maintain air superiority over any country in the Middle
East including Israel.


The Eurofighter Typhoon has the Meteor Mach4+ Ramjet Powered air to
air BVR missiles with OVER 100km range.




So? The US AIM-54 is operative for many years now and has a range of
at least 135 km. Why do you think that future American or Israeli made
missiles won't have those capabilities? Why do you think that in the
tiny Israeli airspace medium/long range missiles are more important
than short range ones? Israel clearly has superiority in the short
range. Also, successful tactics, good pilots and electronic measures
and counter measures are very important. While Israel will know the
exact characteristics of the systems Saudi Arabia and Egypt will have
and would fit its planes with appropriate counter measures, the Saudis
won't have a clue about Israel's unique technological modifications
because Israel is doing a lot of those modifications itself.



The Eurofighter Typhoon has the capability to destroy F-15Is and
F-16Is before the F-15I or F-16I even knows that the Eurofighter
Typhoon is there.




The info will probably come from early warning systems. Israel is
relying upon its own early warning systems while Saudi Arabia and
Egypt will have to rely upon inferior systems, unless the US will sell
its best technology to these Arab countries (and I doubt it will
happen). and again, electronic measures and counter measures are
important here and Israel's own industry gives it the technological
superiority over its neighbors.




The F-22 Raptor is the only aircraft that performs better than the
Eurofighter Typhoon in an air superiority capacity.
From what I've read I don't think even the JSF is up to the
Eurofighter Typhoon's level in the air superiority role.
The JSF would certainly be a huge improvement for Israel over F-15Is
and F-16Is though.
An Israeli pilot plus a JSF would probably be
better than a Saudi Pilot with a Eurofighter Typhoon, but with equal
pilots, ONLY the F-22 Raptor is better than the Eurofighter Typhoon
from what I've read.
F-22 Raptors are VERY EXPENSIVE, I don't know if Israel can afford
them even with free US taxpayer money.
I'd think that Israel would probably go for the JSF in the future.





Israel is already part of the JSF project.


Summing this subject I think that none of us could answer the
hypothetical question about air force superiority in the Middle East
in case the Arabs will have Eurofighters.

It is clear though that the Egyptian army, and maybe also the Saudi
Army pose a real threat on Israel. This is not new.



The real Asymmetry is in the quality of the pilots. I don't know the
Israeli training tempo, but I read a piece by Victor Hanson that said it
was comparable to the US training tempo, and that most dictatorial
states have a training regimen that is about 5% of the time the US
devotes to its pilots. In military training, marginal quantitative
difference can lead to huge qualitative differences.

The reality is, these airplanes are to be used on the local population
when they get fractious. In any combat with a highly qualified air
force like the IAF, even the fanciest airplane is little more than
expensive scrap metal if your pilots aren't trained.
--
Wherever there is a jackboot stepping on a human face, there will be a
well-heeled Western liberal there to assure us that the face enjoys free
health care and a high degree of literacy.\
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\
John Derbyshire

http://www.aracnet.com/~reynard/blogbog.htm}

  #5  
Old September 13th 03, 05:05 PM
Passerby
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I hope that every country surrounding Israel will purchase full complements
of
those EF2000. It will deplete their budgets and will render their airforces
useless
without Israelis haveing to shoot a single antiaircraft missile. According
to all reports
EF2000 is the most expensive heap of non-airworthy trash ever built.


"Quant" wrote in message
om...
(Jack White) wrote


I'm not an air force expert but it is clear from your post that
neither do you. Lets post your claims at rec.aviation.military and
watch the replies.


The Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudi Armed Forces the
capability maintain air superiority over any country in the Middle
East including Israel.


The Eurofighter Typhoon has the Meteor Mach4+ Ramjet Powered air to
air BVR missiles with OVER 100km range.



So? The US AIM-54 is operative for many years now and has a range of
at least 135 km. Why do you think that future American or Israeli made
missiles won't have those capabilities? Why do you think that in the
tiny Israeli airspace medium/long range missiles are more important
than short range ones? Israel clearly has superiority in the short
range. Also, successful tactics, good pilots and electronic measures
and counter measures are very important. While Israel will know the
exact characteristics of the systems Saudi Arabia and Egypt will have
and would fit its planes with appropriate counter measures, the Saudis
won't have a clue about Israel's unique technological modifications
because Israel is doing a lot of those modifications itself.


The Eurofighter Typhoon has the capability to destroy F-15Is and
F-16Is before the F-15I or F-16I even knows that the Eurofighter
Typhoon is there.



The info will probably come from early warning systems. Israel is
relying upon its own early warning systems while Saudi Arabia and
Egypt will have to rely upon inferior systems, unless the US will sell
its best technology to these Arab countries (and I doubt it will
happen). and again, electronic measures and counter measures are
important here and Israel's own industry gives it the technological
superiority over its neighbors.



The F-22 Raptor is the only aircraft that performs better than the
Eurofighter Typhoon in an air superiority capacity.
From what I've read I don't think even the JSF is up to the
Eurofighter Typhoon's level in the air superiority role.
The JSF would certainly be a huge improvement for Israel over F-15Is
and F-16Is though.
An Israeli pilot plus a JSF would probably be
better than a Saudi Pilot with a Eurofighter Typhoon, but with equal
pilots, ONLY the F-22 Raptor is better than the Eurofighter Typhoon
from what I've read.
F-22 Raptors are VERY EXPENSIVE, I don't know if Israel can afford
them even with free US taxpayer money.
I'd think that Israel would probably go for the JSF in the future.




Israel is already part of the JSF project.


Summing this subject I think that none of us could answer the
hypothetical question about air force superiority in the Middle East
in case the Arabs will have Eurofighters.

It is clear though that the Egyptian army, and maybe also the Saudi
Army pose a real threat on Israel. This is not new.



  #6  
Old September 13th 03, 06:02 PM
phil hunt
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Posts: n/a
Default

On 13 Sep 2003 04:51:07 -0700, Quant wrote:
(Jack White) wrote


I'm not an air force expert but it is clear from your post that
neither do you. Lets post your claims at rec.aviation.military and
watch the replies.


[I'm not an expert either, but I'll wade in nevertheless...]

The Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudi Armed Forces the
capability maintain air superiority over any country in the Middle
East including Israel.


Hang, on, who's saying thre Saudis are buying the Typhoon? If they
are, I haven't heard of it.

The Eurofighter Typhoon has the Meteor Mach4+ Ramjet Powered air to
air BVR missiles with OVER 100km range.


It will have in the future; currently Meteor is still under
development.

So? The US AIM-54 is operative for many years now and has a range of
at least 135 km.


That's a theoretical range; what's a typical engagement range, and
what's the furthest range it's been successfully fired at?

Bear in mind that planes under attack aren't going to just sit
there. They could run away, hoping to outrange the missile. Or the
could manouvre. Or use electronic countermeasures. If the missile
depends on a radar from the firing aircraft illuminating the target,
the target aircraft can fire a missile of its own, to make the
firing aircraft turn away and stop illuminating (obviously this
won't work for fire-and-forget missiles). The target aircraft can
also fire flares to confuse IR-homing missiles, or trailing pod to
give a false radar image (the Typhoon does this; I'm not sure if
any other fighters do).

Some people have suggested that a defending aircraft could fire a
laser beam to confuse/destroy the sensors in a missile.

Why do you think that future American or Israeli made
missiles won't have those capabilities? Why do you think that in the
tiny Israeli airspace medium/long range missiles are more important
than short range ones?


Clearly, if there was a long-range missile that was immune to all
those countermeasures, it would be very useful. Then again, the
ability to turn lead into gold woulds be useful too.

In the past, people removed guns from fighters, claiming
they'll never be used because all engagements would be long range.
This prediction turned out to be false, and the guns were put back
in. (incidently, the RAF's Typhoons won't have a gun, but the other
countries' variants will).

Israel clearly has superiority in the short
range. Also, successful tactics, good pilots and electronic measures
and counter measures are very important.


Good pilots are probably the single most important factor.

While Israel will know the
exact characteristics of the systems Saudi Arabia and Egypt will have


Why?

and would fit its planes with appropriate counter measures, the Saudis
won't have a clue about Israel's unique technological modifications
because Israel is doing a lot of those modifications itself.


I don't see why SA and Egypt couldn't make modifications ot their
aircraft too, even if they don't have a large electronics industry.

The Eurofighter Typhoon has the capability to destroy F-15Is and
F-16Is before the F-15I or F-16I even knows that the Eurofighter
Typhoon is there.


This may or may not be the case. Typhoon is almost certainly a
better plane than the F-15 or F-16; it's more manouvrable, has a
better thrust-to-weight ratio, can supercruise, is partially
stealthed, and has better avionics making the pilot's job easier.
However, until it has seen combat, it's to early to say
definitievely what its capabilities are.

The info will probably come from early warning systems. Israel is
relying upon its own early warning systems while Saudi Arabia and
Egypt will have to rely upon inferior systems, unless the US will sell
its best technology to these Arab countries


Or unless the Europeans do.

(and I doubt it will
happen). and again, electronic measures and counter measures are
important here and Israel's own industry gives it the technological
superiority over its neighbors.


I doubt if Israel's electronics industry is better than Europe's;
Europe's is certainly a lot bigger. And size counts: how many
models of anti-aircraft missile does Israel produce? Europe produces
more variety. So even if the best Israeli missile is better than a
typical European one, it might not be better than the best European
one.

The F-22 Raptor is the only aircraft that performs better than the
Eurofighter Typhoon in an air superiority capacity.
From what I've read I don't think even the JSF is up to the
Eurofighter Typhoon's level in the air superiority role.


The JSF isn't designed to be a pure air superiority aircraft, it's,
as its name suggests, designed to be multi-role.

The JSF would certainly be a huge improvement for Israel over F-15Is
and F-16Is though.
An Israeli pilot plus a JSF would probably be
better than a Saudi Pilot with a Eurofighter Typhoon, but with equal
pilots, ONLY the F-22 Raptor is better than the Eurofighter Typhoon
from what I've read.


This may well be right; certainly the DERA study suggests it is.

Summing this subject I think that none of us could answer the
hypothetical question about air force superiority in the Middle East
in case the Arabs will have Eurofighters.


There are lots of hypotheticals. For example, if SA is buying
Eurofighters they will also probably buy an anti-runway cruise
missile in the Apache / SCALP / Storm Shadow family, which might
enable them to shut down Israeli airbases.

It is clear though that the Egyptian army, and maybe also the Saudi
Army pose a real threat on Israel. This is not new.


My understanding is the Saudi army is rather small. Dunno about the
Egyptian army.

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  #7  
Old September 13th 03, 06:03 PM
phil hunt
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On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 16:38:25 +0100, Big Dave wrote:
Aaaah but isn't the AIM 54 being retired as the only plane that can carry it
is the F14 which is also nearing it max flying hours so will also be
retired?


Aparently, Iran (the only F-14 operator apart from the USA) is
building its own copy of the AIM 54.

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  #8  
Old September 13th 03, 07:04 PM
phil hunt
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On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 16:05:03 GMT, Passerby wrote:
I hope that every country surrounding Israel will purchase full complements
of
those EF2000. It will deplete their budgets and will render their airforces
useless
without Israelis haveing to shoot a single antiaircraft missile. According
to all reports
EF2000 is the most expensive heap of non-airworthy trash ever built.


Which reports are these, then?

Do some of them actually refer to the aircraft by its correct name,
and not an old name that hasn't been current for years, by any
chance?

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  #9  
Old September 13th 03, 07:09 PM
phil hunt
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On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:56:58 -0400, Peter Kemp
The Meteor is still a few years from deployment though, but when it
arrives, it should handily outrange AMRAAM which is the longest spear
in the IAF armoury (Derby is alleged to have a much shorter range).


Incidently, why is Israel naming this missile after an English city?

Why do you think that future American or Israeli made
missiles won't have those capabilities?


Because there are no current projects publicly announced that have the
capabilities of the Meteor. Could there be one in development? Maybe,
but there's no evidence for it.


IIRC a successor to the Phoenix was planned, but was scrapped in
the 1990s.


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  #10  
Old September 13th 03, 07:14 PM
Chad Irby
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Steven DeMonnin wrote:

The real Asymmetry is in the quality of the pilots. I don't know the
Israeli training tempo, but I read a piece by Victor Hanson that said it
was comparable to the US training tempo, and that most dictatorial
states have a training regimen that is about 5% of the time the US
devotes to its pilots. In military training, marginal quantitative
difference can lead to huge qualitative differences.


Not to mention ,of course, the ground troops maintaining the planes.

Those brand new Eurofighters are going to be combat-effective for a
month, maybe two, and if they go into a heavy training regimen, it'll be
shorter than that.

And since they'll be "new" planes, they're going to have the normal
teething problems, without a good crew to do the updates and fixes that
any plane suffers off of the assemby line.

--


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Slam on brakes accordingly.
 




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