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Guns on fighters?



 
 
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  #41  
Old August 17th 03, 04:08 PM
Ed Rasimus
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(Pechs1) wrote:

walt- Is there any reason why a SUU23 gun pod wouldn't work on any Navy
aircraft weapons station that can take a MER? BRBR

2000 pound item, poor reliability, worse boresighting. When I flew with them in
the 61st TFS, we said that they wouldn't even hit the nose gear if it were
down, they were so poorly boresighted and bent up.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer


One man's meat is another man's poison. Although I didn't fly SUU-16
or SUU-23 in combat, I did carry the gun to the range for four years
of driving F-4C's in Europe--Torrejon, Incirlik and Aviano.

During that time, I never had a SUU-23 malfunction. It was virtually
100% reliable. (I can't say the same for M61s mounted in F-105s or
F-4Es, although the malfunctions were rare.) Boresighting isn't a
"gun" factor, it's a "gun plumber" factor. If the gun hangers do their
job and the operator's take care of the fold down sight (F-4C), the
gun will shoot where you point it. (We made it a practice never to
fold the sight down, assuming that continually up/down cycling would
change the boresight). I could regularly shoot in the mid-to-high 80%
range with a SUU-23.

Similarly we carried the SUU-11 mini-gun on the Fighter Lead-In
AT-38B's. Same story. The little gun got me a mid-90% average for
nearly four years in that job.

As for combat effectiveness with the hung gun, an AF type, Dee
Simmonds killed two MiGs during the great SEA unpleasantness with one.
I see Dee every year at the River Rats Reunion.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038
  #42  
Old August 18th 03, 01:02 AM
Eric Moore
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Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..
(Pechs1) wrote:

walt- Is there any reason why a SUU23 gun pod wouldn't work on any Navy
aircraft weapons station that can take a MER? BRBR

2000 pound item, poor reliability, worse boresighting. When I flew with them in
the 61st TFS, we said that they wouldn't even hit the nose gear if it were
down, they were so poorly boresighted and bent up.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer


One man's meat is another man's poison. Although I didn't fly SUU-16
or SUU-23 in combat, I did carry the gun to the range for four years
of driving F-4C's in Europe--Torrejon, Incirlik and Aviano.

During that time, I never had a SUU-23 malfunction. It was virtually
100% reliable. (I can't say the same for M61s mounted in F-105s or
F-4Es, although the malfunctions were rare.) Boresighting isn't a
"gun" factor, it's a "gun plumber" factor. If the gun hangers do their
job and the operator's take care of the fold down sight (F-4C), the
gun will shoot where you point it. (We made it a practice never to
fold the sight down, assuming that continually up/down cycling would
change the boresight). I could regularly shoot in the mid-to-high 80%
range with a SUU-23.

Similarly we carried the SUU-11 mini-gun on the Fighter Lead-In
AT-38B's. Same story. The little gun got me a mid-90% average for
nearly four years in that job.

As for combat effectiveness with the hung gun, an AF type, Dee
Simmonds killed two MiGs during the great SEA unpleasantness with one.
I see Dee every year at the River Rats Reunion.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038



What about weapon-bay-mounted guns? I know the F-106 and the F-111
could accomodate a vulcan cannon in their weapon bays. How effective were
they?
Were setups like this ever used in anger?
  #44  
Old August 18th 03, 10:27 PM
Guy Alcala
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Ed Rasimus wrote:

(Eric Moore) wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..

As for combat effectiveness with the hung gun, an AF type, Dee
Simmonds killed two MiGs during the great SEA unpleasantness with one.
I see Dee every year at the River Rats Reunion.


What about weapon-bay-mounted guns? I know the F-106 and the F-111
could accomodate a vulcan cannon in their weapon bays. How effective were
they?
Were setups like this ever used in anger?


The F-106 holds the distinction of being one of only two USAF
inventory systems that did not see combat in SEA. (The other was the
B-58.) The weapon-bay installation occurred after SEA combat was over.

The F-111 never carried the gun in USAF combat.


Not correct. According to aircrew who flew the 'Pig' in SEA (see Thornborough: "F-111: Success in Action"),
they were required to carry the gun pod on every mission. No that they thought it was useful, given that
the mission involved going in at night/under the weather when the MiGs really couldn't play, and they
certanly had no intention of strafing, especially single-ship. But they were ordered to carry it anyway,
much as 7th AF ordered F-105F weasels to carry jammer pods which they virtually never used, and which
displaced a Shrike.


With it's largeplanform, high wing loading, poor agility, ground map optimized radar


and rotten visibility, the Vark was remarkably unsuited for air-to-air
combat. Not even the most ardent Vark supporter would have wanted to
engage MiGs in one. The defense was high speed escape.


Yup. If some MiG had been unfortunate enough to find itself in front of a Vark, then maybe the gun might
have been useful (as it was on the F-105 in similar circumstances), but the F-111 normally operated in very
different weather/visibility/tactical conditions than the F-105.

Guy


  #45  
Old August 20th 03, 02:22 PM
Pechs1
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Ed- Although I've got more combat hours in the F-4 than the F-105, I've
got more time engaged with MiGs in the 105 than the F-4. BRBR

can't let that pass...anything you can tell us about Mig engagements in the
Thud??
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer
  #46  
Old August 20th 03, 03:40 PM
Ed Rasimus
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(Pechs1) wrote:

Ed- Although I've got more combat hours in the F-4 than the F-105, I've
got more time engaged with MiGs in the 105 than the F-4. BRBR

can't let that pass...anything you can tell us about Mig engagements in the
Thud??
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer


My "best" or possibly "worst" is described in When Thunder Rolled in
the chapter titled, "Of MiGs and Moustaches." You've got to buy the
book! There's also the description of my near rejoin one day on a
flight of three MiG-21s.

Seriously, anyone who went intentionally MiG hunting in a 105 was
judgementally flawed. Few folks had much in the way of air-to-air
training and the concepts that we take for granted today such as fluid
attack/loose deuce, energy manueverability, Ps management, etc. were
not understood very well and definitely not practiced. What A/A
experience we had was usually illegally boot-legged in unbriefed
hassles flown in the farthest reaches of the training area.

In the 105 we always had the gun, of course, but only seldom did we
carry AIM-9s and even then it was the AIM-9B which had a 2.5G firing
limit.

The good news was that if you flew your airplane properly, you
wouldn't always win, but you would never lose. That meant keeping your
airspeed up above your corner--for the 105 that was above about 480
KIAS. If you stayed that fast you had good turning capability. Anyone
in a MiG-17 couldn't keep up and in a -21 had a bigger turn radius.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038
  #47  
Old August 21st 03, 03:00 PM
Pechs1
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Ed- My "best" or possibly "worst" is described in When Thunder Rolled in
the chapter titled, "Of MiGs and Moustaches." You've got to buy the
book! There's also the description of my near rejoin one day on a
flight of three MiG-21s. BRBR

I will this WE-thanks-


P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer
  #48  
Old August 23rd 03, 01:41 PM
Pechs1
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Got it yesterday and it looks like a great read(loved the part about the BOQ).
Any other books you can recommend about the air war in VN, other than the
excellent suggestions at the beginning of your book?
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer
  #49  
Old August 23rd 03, 03:48 PM
Ed Rasimus
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(Pechs1) wrote:

Got it yesterday and it looks like a great read(loved the part about the BOQ).
Any other books you can recommend about the air war in VN, other than the
excellent suggestions at the beginning of your book?
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer


Already back-channelled you this by email, but for the edification of
the rest of the group:

As history, the best I've seen so far is Wayne Thompson's "To Hanoi
and Back"--it's a good analysis of the air war from the start of
Rolling Thunder to the end of Linebacker.

For the F-105 story, G.I. Basel's relatively short "Pak Six" is
excellent as is Al Lenski's "Magic 100". Jack Broughton's two books,
"Going Downtown" and "Thud Ridge", particularly the latter, deal with
105s in '67, but tend to be a bit self-serving. Ken Bell's "100
Missions North" is a load of crap.

For Linebacker, Jeff Ethell's "One Day in a Long War" cover just
that--May 10th (or 11th?). A pretty intense day in which the AF
attacked the Doumer Bridge again and Cunningham got his three-bagger.
Also Marshall Michel's "11 Days of Christmas" which really hits SAC
leadership hard about the Linebacker II losses.

That's a short list to keep you busy until my second book gets to
print.

-----

Here's a few more I've recalled since then:

Zalin Grant's excellent book on F-8 ops from Oriskany, "Over The
Beach".

John Trotti, "Phantom Over Vietnam"--USMC ops, mostly in-country and
Southern panhandle of NVN.

Walter Kross, "Splash One: Air Victory Over Hanoi"--a thinly
fictionalized account of the January '67 "Bolo" raid led by Robin Olds
to sweep the sky of MiGs. Doesn't stretch very far from the historical
facts.

Any of Tom Wilson's excellent trilogy of F-105 Weasel books--"Termite
Hill", "Lucky's Bridge" and "Tango Uniform". Fiction, but heavily
based on Wilson's own experience as an F-105 Wild Weasel "Bear."


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038
  #50  
Old August 23rd 03, 08:05 PM
Mike Kanze
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Ed,

F-105 Wild Weasel "Bear."


That's as in "trained bear" - F-105 WW backseater, right?

--
Mike Kanze

436 Greenbrier Road
Half Moon Bay, California 94019-2259
USA

650-726-7890

"I've had a lot of calls asking if my dog Ernest was running for Governor.
I explained to each caller that Ernest died several years ago, to which the
usual response has been, 'So what?' Come to think of it, would a dead dog
running for Governor make California look any more weird than it already
does?"

- Al Shugart, Chairman - Friends of Ernest (San José Mercury-News, 8-16-03)


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
[snipped]



 




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