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GPT (Gulfport MS) ILS 14 question



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 26th 05, 04:58 AM
A Lieberman
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Default GPT (Gulfport MS) ILS 14 question

About to take a trip down to Gulfport MS (GPT) tomorrow morning.

Ceilings are forecasted to be 300 broken, so I really doubt that I will be
mucking around with full procedure approaches in the clag, but while I was
studying the approaches into GPT, I am kinda figuring on expecting vectors
for the ILS 14 approach based on forecasted winds.

Looking at the approach, the IAF is CAESA. Outside the 10 NM ring, it says
2000 no PT, so, I would take it that no procedure turn is authorized, yet,
I see the procedure turn barbs just inside the 10 NM ring. Am I reading
this correctly that no procedure turns for the ILS is authorized outside
this 10NM ring, and if I was to do a full procedure approach that it must
be inside the the 10 NM ring??? Or what am I missing?

This question is coming up, as when I got my flight briefing, the briefer
said, no procedure turn at CAESA from Victor 552 which in my opinion agrees
with the approach chart, yet I see the procedure turn barbs outbound 268
and inbound 088 to intercept the localizer.

Any assistance in clearing up my question really appreciated.

Allen
  #2  
Old January 26th 05, 05:10 AM
John Clonts
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Default


"A Lieberman" wrote in message ...
About to take a trip down to Gulfport MS (GPT) tomorrow morning.

Ceilings are forecasted to be 300 broken, so I really doubt that I will be
mucking around with full procedure approaches in the clag, but while I was
studying the approaches into GPT, I am kinda figuring on expecting vectors
for the ILS 14 approach based on forecasted winds.

Looking at the approach, the IAF is CAESA. Outside the 10 NM ring, it says
2000 no PT, so, I would take it that no procedure turn is authorized, yet,
I see the procedure turn barbs just inside the 10 NM ring. Am I reading
this correctly that no procedure turns for the ILS is authorized outside
this 10NM ring, and if I was to do a full procedure approach that it must
be inside the the 10 NM ring??? Or what am I missing?


I'm looking at the naco chart at http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0501/00576IL14.PDF

The procedure turn is applicable only if you start the approach at the BAYOU IAF. The "2000 noPT" designation
applies only if you start the approach at the CAESA IAF. The barb being inside or outside the 10nm ring is not
significant itself (though it shows outside the 10nm ring on the naco chart), but the profile view clearly
indicates that you must remain within 15nm on the procedure turn.


This question is coming up, as when I got my flight briefing, the briefer
said, no procedure turn at CAESA from Victor 552 which in my opinion agrees
with the approach chart, yet I see the procedure turn barbs outbound 268
and inbound 088 to intercept the localizer.

Any assistance in clearing up my question really appreciated.


I expect that most FSS briefers know very little about approaches

Have a great flight!

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ


  #3  
Old January 26th 05, 05:20 AM
Peter R.
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Default

A Lieberman ) wrote:

Looking at the approach, the IAF is CAESA. Outside the 10 NM ring, it says
2000 no PT, so, I would take it that no procedure turn is authorized, yet,
I see the procedure turn barbs just inside the 10 NM ring. Am I reading
this correctly that no procedure turns for the ILS is authorized outside
this 10NM ring, and if I was to do a full procedure approach that it must
be inside the the 10 NM ring??? Or what am I missing?


I am looking at the chart and seeing that there is another IAF at the
LOM (BAYOU). If you were coming from the southwest/southeast,
presumably you would use this IAF and hence, fly the localizer outbound
and execute the PT.

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../00576IL14.PDF

If you were coming from the north, you would fly to the CAESA IAF,
intercept the localizer at 2000 and fly inbound, not PT needed.

--
Peter






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  #4  
Old January 26th 05, 05:23 AM
Stan Prevost
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Default


"A Lieberman" wrote in message
...
About to take a trip down to Gulfport MS (GPT) tomorrow morning.

Ceilings are forecasted to be 300 broken, so I really doubt that I will be
mucking around with full procedure approaches in the clag, but while I was
studying the approaches into GPT, I am kinda figuring on expecting vectors
for the ILS 14 approach based on forecasted winds.

Looking at the approach, the IAF is CAESA. Outside the 10 NM ring, it

says
2000 no PT, so, I would take it that no procedure turn is authorized, yet,
I see the procedure turn barbs just inside the 10 NM ring. Am I reading
this correctly that no procedure turns for the ILS is authorized outside
this 10NM ring, and if I was to do a full procedure approach that it must
be inside the the 10 NM ring??? Or what am I missing?

This question is coming up, as when I got my flight briefing, the briefer
said, no procedure turn at CAESA from Victor 552 which in my opinion

agrees
with the approach chart, yet I see the procedure turn barbs outbound 268
and inbound 088 to intercept the localizer.

Any assistance in clearing up my question really appreciated.

Allen


A0008/05 (FDC 5/0505) - ILS OR LOC RWY 14, AMDT 14... CHANGE PLANVIEW NOTE:
PROCEDURE NA FOR ARRIVALS AT CAESA VIA V552 WESTBOUND VICE V522 WESTBOUND.
WIE UNTIL UFN

The only reason a briefer would discuss the details of an instrument
approach procedure is if there was a NOTAM pertaining to it. Somewhere in
your discussion with the briefer, the "procedure" vs the "procedure turn"
got mixed up.



  #5  
Old January 26th 05, 05:33 AM
A Lieberman
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:10:43 -0600, John Clonts wrote:

I'm looking at the naco chart at http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0501/00576IL14.PDF

The procedure turn is applicable only if you start the approach at the BAYOU IAF. The "2000 noPT" designation
applies only if you start the approach at the CAESA IAF. The barb being inside or outside the 10nm ring is not
significant itself (though it shows outside the 10nm ring on the naco chart), but the profile view clearly
indicates that you must remain within 15nm on the procedure turn.


Hey John,

Thanks for your quick reply. What you say makes perfect sense!!! (I am
using the NACO chart as well) However....

I expect that most FSS briefers know very little about approaches


I should have said that the FSS gave me the following FDC.

FDC 5/0505 GPT FI/T GULFPORT-BILOXI INTL, GULFPORT, MS.
ILS OR LOC RWY 14, AMDT 14...
CHANGE PLANVIEW NOTE: PROCEDURE NA FOR ARRIVALS
AT CAESA VIA V552 WESTBOUND VICE V522 WESTBOUND.

IF and only IF I was wanting to do a full procedure approach coming from
any other direction then westbound, would a procedure turn be authorized
based on the above FDC? If not, what is this FDC about?

Have a great flight!


Tops are forecasted to be 5000, filed 5000 for starters as I am expecting
higher tailwinds at a lower altitude. Should be real good, but short
(almost too short!) *smile*.

Allen
  #6  
Old January 26th 05, 05:36 AM
A Lieberman
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Default

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:33:29 -0600, A Lieberman wrote:

FDC 5/0505 GPT FI/T GULFPORT-BILOXI INTL, GULFPORT, MS.
ILS OR LOC RWY 14, AMDT 14...
CHANGE PLANVIEW NOTE: PROCEDURE NA FOR ARRIVALS
AT CAESA VIA V552 WESTBOUND VICE V522 WESTBOUND.

IF and only IF I was wanting to do a full procedure approach coming from
any other direction then westbound, would a procedure turn be authorized
based on the above FDC? If not, what is this FDC about?


DUH, Stan Prevost, cleared this question up! I think I was combining
procedure and procedure turn together, rather then two different "terms".

Thanks to all for clearing this up!

Allen
  #7  
Old January 26th 05, 03:06 PM
Roy Smith
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Default

In article ,
A Lieberman wrote:

About to take a trip down to Gulfport MS (GPT) tomorrow morning.

Ceilings are forecasted to be 300 broken, so I really doubt that I will be
mucking around with full procedure approaches in the clag, but while I was
studying the approaches into GPT, I am kinda figuring on expecting vectors
for the ILS 14 approach based on forecasted winds.

Looking at the approach, the IAF is CAESA. Outside the 10 NM ring, it says
2000 no PT, so, I would take it that no procedure turn is authorized, yet,
I see the procedure turn barbs just inside the 10 NM ring. Am I reading
this correctly that no procedure turns for the ILS is authorized outside
this 10NM ring, and if I was to do a full procedure approach that it must
be inside the the 10 NM ring??? Or what am I missing?


I'm looking at the NOS plate

(http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0501/00576IL14.PDF)

The "2000 NoPT" is marking the straight-in segment from CASEA, but the
way it's drawn, it's really hard to see that. I don't have an en-route
for that area, but I would assume there are multiple airways that go to
CASEA. It boils down to this:

1) If you're arriving CASEA on V522 westbound, the whole procedure is
NA. Not just the procedure turn, but the whole procedure.

2) If you're arriving at CASEA on any other airway, then the procedure
TURN is NA, i.e. you go straight-in.

3) If you're arriving at CASEA from BAYOU (perhaps via MUDDA, MINDO, or
GPT VOR).

The cartography here is horrible. I would have drawn the PT barb much
closer in; this would have made it clearer that the NoPT note pertained
to the segment inbound from CASEA.

Does anybody have a Jepp plate handy? Does Jepp draw it any better?


The other problem is the "Procedure NA" terminology is confusing.
Everybody is used to talking about "procedure turn", and the brain just
naturally reads "procedure NA" as "procedure turn NA". I've seen that
mistake made several times (and made it myself). A better note would be
"Approach not authorized for arrivals from V522 westbound". That would
be less likely to be mis-read. I'm sure getting that change into TERPS
would only require about 10 years of debate and paperwork.
  #8  
Old January 26th 05, 10:39 PM
Dave
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Posts: n/a
Default

It would be simpler if it said IAP not available. That would be clearer
"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
A Lieberman wrote:

About to take a trip down to Gulfport MS (GPT) tomorrow morning.

Ceilings are forecasted to be 300 broken, so I really doubt that I will
be
mucking around with full procedure approaches in the clag, but while I
was
studying the approaches into GPT, I am kinda figuring on expecting
vectors
for the ILS 14 approach based on forecasted winds.

Looking at the approach, the IAF is CAESA. Outside the 10 NM ring, it
says
2000 no PT, so, I would take it that no procedure turn is authorized,
yet,
I see the procedure turn barbs just inside the 10 NM ring. Am I reading
this correctly that no procedure turns for the ILS is authorized outside
this 10NM ring, and if I was to do a full procedure approach that it must
be inside the the 10 NM ring??? Or what am I missing?


I'm looking at the NOS plate

(http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0501/00576IL14.PDF)

The "2000 NoPT" is marking the straight-in segment from CASEA, but the
way it's drawn, it's really hard to see that. I don't have an en-route
for that area, but I would assume there are multiple airways that go to
CASEA. It boils down to this:

1) If you're arriving CASEA on V522 westbound, the whole procedure is
NA. Not just the procedure turn, but the whole procedure.

2) If you're arriving at CASEA on any other airway, then the procedure
TURN is NA, i.e. you go straight-in.

3) If you're arriving at CASEA from BAYOU (perhaps via MUDDA, MINDO, or
GPT VOR).

The cartography here is horrible. I would have drawn the PT barb much
closer in; this would have made it clearer that the NoPT note pertained
to the segment inbound from CASEA.

Does anybody have a Jepp plate handy? Does Jepp draw it any better?


The other problem is the "Procedure NA" terminology is confusing.
Everybody is used to talking about "procedure turn", and the brain just
naturally reads "procedure NA" as "procedure turn NA". I've seen that
mistake made several times (and made it myself). A better note would be
"Approach not authorized for arrivals from V522 westbound". That would
be less likely to be mis-read. I'm sure getting that change into TERPS
would only require about 10 years of debate and paperwork.



  #9  
Old January 26th 05, 11:07 PM
CKonikoff
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Default

Sorry for not seeing the original posting, but this is all I had. Your display
of the NOTAM says to change V522 to V552. Since the enroute chart shows no
V522, only V552, is it possible that they simply made a typo on the original
and were trying to change the approach chart to say not to make the PT on V552
instead of V522. Just a thought.

Charles
  #10  
Old January 27th 05, 02:12 AM
Peter Clark
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Default

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:06:22 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:


Does anybody have a Jepp plate handy? Does Jepp draw it any better?


They designate it with a note in the plan view near CAESA (it's a
Jepp note, inverse-video 1 next to CAESA, the text could appear
anywhere but happens to be right under CAESA for this procedure)
reading "Procedure not authorized for arrivals at CAESA via V522
westbound". Same effect if one isn't paying close attention to the
meaning of the text.

 




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