Were the Tuskeegee Airmen Wrong?

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...

Was B Davis the one who would dictate that fighters under his
command would implement bomber escort by sticking with the bombers
or was it an AF wide implementation order, done at a higher level
than Group or Wing?

Within general terms, I'd venture to say that it was from higher HQ. If
every unit CO were able to define his own taskings, some would be left out.
You can't have everyone doing the glamour missions.

8th AF, you do this
12th AF, you do that

Tactics evolve with experience, but the general instructions flow downward.

Pete

Stephen Harding wrote:
Saw the Tuskeegee Airmen movie earlier this week where
intermission had discussions with a couple fellows who
were members of the real thing. Quite interesting.

However, they mentioned the oft repeated accolade that
they never lost a bomber to enemy fighters that they
escorted. One reason, according to one of the actual
"Airmen", was they *stuck with their charges* rather than
follow the German fighters to the ground as the 8th was
doing by 1944.

History seems to say this was precisely the *wrong* thing
to be doing! The bombers served as much as "incentive"
for the LW to come up to fight, as they were in destroying
German war fighting resources. The shift from "sticking
with the bombers" to "follow the enemy anywhere and
destroy him" seemed to do the trick for the 8th.

Was the 13th (??) AF in Italy, and the Tuskeegee Airmen
in particular, following the wrong tactic? Is the
reputation of this fine group of fighter pilots somewhat
over-embellished with hollow accolade over the issue of
"never losing a bomber"?

12th AF was in Italy.....13th AF in the Pacific, I believe.

George Z.

George Z. Bush wrote:

Was the 13th (??) AF in Italy, and the Tuskeegee Airmen
in particular, following the wrong tactic? Is the
reputation of this fine group of fighter pilots somewhat
over-embellished with hollow accolade over the issue of
"never losing a bomber"?

12th AF was in Italy.....13th AF in the Pacific, I believe.

Knew that didn't quite sound right.

Thanks George. BTW, was that "your" AF?


SMH

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
George Z. Bush wrote:

Was the 13th (??) AF in Italy, and the Tuskeegee Airmen
in particular, following the wrong tactic? Is the
reputation of this fine group of fighter pilots somewhat
over-embellished with hollow accolade over the issue of
"never losing a bomber"?

12th AF was in Italy.....13th AF in the Pacific, I believe.

Knew that didn't quite sound right.

Thanks George. BTW, was that "your" AF?

12th, and before you have to ask, I was in Troop Carrier flying goonies, which
is why I stayed out of the discussion about the Tuskegee Airmen.

George Z.

Thanks George. BTW, was that "your" AF?

12th, and before you have to ask, I was in Troop Carrier flying goonies,
which
is why I stayed out of the discussion about the Tuskegee Airmen.

George Z.


My grandfather was in the 17th TCS as a gooney pilot.




Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter

Ron wrote:
Thanks George. BTW, was that "your" AF?

12th, and before you have to ask, I was in Troop Carrier flying goonies,
which
is why I stayed out of the discussion about the Tuskegee Airmen.

George Z.


My grandfather was in the 17th TCS as a gooney pilot.

Your granddad was in the 64th TCGp....I was in the 4th TCSq, 62nd TCGp. Your
granddad's outfit was mostly involved in servicing the Yugoslav part of the
theater, whereas we mostly worked the NW part of Italy (up around Genoa and
Milan, etc.). The third TCGp (the 60th) was based around Naples and did mostly
intra-theater stuff. Small world!

George Z.




Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
Saw the Tuskeegee Airmen movie earlier this week where
intermission had discussions with a couple fellows who
were members of the real thing. Quite interesting.

However, they mentioned the oft repeated accolade that
they never lost a bomber to enemy fighters that they
escorted. One reason, according to one of the actual
"Airmen", was they *stuck with their charges* rather than
follow the German fighters to the ground as the 8th was
doing by 1944.

History seems to say this was precisely the *wrong* thing
to be doing!

History wasnt flying a bomber


The bombers served as much as "incentive"
for the LW to come up to fight, as they were in destroying
German war fighting resources. The shift from "sticking
with the bombers" to "follow the enemy anywhere and
destroy him" seemed to do the trick for the 8th.


I rather supect different orders applied depending on the
importance of the mission and the roleof the unit concerned.

Was the 13th (??) AF in Italy, and the Tuskeegee Airmen
in particular, following the wrong tactic? Is the
reputation of this fine group of fighter pilots somewhat
over-embellished with hollow accolade over the issue of
"never losing a bomber"?


The command at the time seems to have been happy
with them else they doubtless have issued other orders.

Keith

Keith Willshaw wrote:

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message

Was the 13th (??) AF in Italy, and the Tuskeegee Airmen
in particular, following the wrong tactic? Is the
reputation of this fine group of fighter pilots somewhat
over-embellished with hollow accolade over the issue of
"never losing a bomber"?

The command at the time seems to have been happy
with them else they doubtless have issued other orders.

No doubt true.

I will presume that other fighter groups in the 12th were
doing precisely the same thing (sticking with the bombers).

In this case, and assuming going after the fighters to destroy
them rather than sticking, *was the correct thing to do*, then
someone higher up was responsible for escort implementation
"error", at a time the 8th AF "knew better" (say early 1944).

Guess this all boils down to "what did leadership know and
when did they know it?".

Some things never change.


SMH

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
Keith Willshaw wrote:

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message

Was the 13th (??) AF in Italy, and the Tuskeegee Airmen
in particular, following the wrong tactic? Is the
reputation of this fine group of fighter pilots somewhat
over-embellished with hollow accolade over the issue of
"never losing a bomber"?

The command at the time seems to have been happy
with them else they doubtless have issued other orders.

No doubt true.

I will presume that other fighter groups in the 12th were
doing precisely the same thing (sticking with the bombers).

In this case, and assuming going after the fighters to destroy
them rather than sticking, *was the correct thing to do*, then
someone higher up was responsible for escort implementation
"error", at a time the 8th AF "knew better" (say early 1944).


Thats assuming it was an error. Depending on the relative
numbers of German versus Allied aircraft in the Italian theatre
and a host of other factors it may well have been that the correct
strategy was to stay with the bombers.

Guess this all boils down to "what did leadership know and
when did they know it?".

Just so

Keith

Subject: Were the Tuskeegee Airmen Wrong?
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 2/12/04 6:38 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
Keith Willshaw wrote:

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message

Was the 13th (??) AF in Italy, and the Tuskeegee Airmen
in particular, following the wrong tactic? Is the
reputation of this fine group of fighter pilots somewhat
over-embellished with hollow accolade over the issue of
"never losing a bomber"?

The command at the time seems to have been happy
with them else they doubtless have issued other orders.

No doubt true.

I will presume that other fighter groups in the 12th were
doing precisely the same thing (sticking with the bombers).

In this case, and assuming going after the fighters to destroy
them rather than sticking, *was the correct thing to do*, then
someone higher up was responsible for escort implementation
"error", at a time the 8th AF "knew better" (say early 1944).


Thats assuming it was an error. Depending on the relative
numbers of German versus Allied aircraft in the Italian theatre
and a host of other factors it may well have been that the correct
strategy was to stay with the bombers.

Guess this all boils down to "what did leadership know and
when did they know it?".

Just so

Keith



As far as I know no other squadron in the ETO in WW II could make that claim.
And it is a claim that I personally find meritorious. Can anyone find anyone
who flew bombers in WW II that finds the claim "Hollow"?




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer