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#11
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MoGas Tips, Tricks, Concerns, How To
The major Mogas concern I have is that so few have endorsed the
concept, that it may not ever get to critical mass. The engine manufacturers ignore it or don't support it, the AOPA never mentions it, many FBOs simply state "our insurance won't cover it", the hodge podge of state gasahol laws are eroding the practicality of it all, and lastly we owners of low compression engines simply are not using it anywhere near as much as we should. Mogas is simply assumed by most "real pilots" and mechanics to be a substitute fuel, inferior or harmful to engines, and something that is only used by a small minority of old aircraft owners. For those and probably still other reasons, mogas isn't widely available for cross country use. The advantages of Mogas are only talked about in forums such as these. Mogas users have to get this situation changed. Some day 100LL is going to disappear by an EPA mandate & then where will we be? I feel the 100LL users are whistling in the dark as no substitutes seem to be forthcoming to their leaded fuel. |
#12
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MoGas Tips, Tricks, Concerns, How To
nrp wrote: The major Mogas concern I have is that so few have endorsed the concept, that it may not ever get to critical mass. The engine manufacturers ignore it or don't support it, the AOPA never mentions it, many FBOs simply state "our insurance won't cover it", the hodge podge of state gasahol laws are eroding the practicality of it all, and lastly we owners of low compression engines simply are not using it anywhere near as much as we should. Mogas is simply assumed by most "real pilots" and mechanics to be a substitute fuel, inferior or harmful to engines, and something that is only used by a small minority of old aircraft owners. For those and probably still other reasons, mogas isn't widely available for cross country use. The advantages of Mogas are only talked about in forums such as these. Mogas users have to get this situation changed. Some day 100LL is going to disappear by an EPA mandate & then where will we be? I feel the 100LL users are whistling in the dark as no substitutes seem to be forthcoming to their leaded fuel. Both Aviation Consumer and AOPA pilot have articles on this subject in their current issues. They both conclude that 100LL is really not going to be going away in the foreseeable future (the EPA has delegated the issue the FAA and the FAA is not interested in getting rid of 100LL), and they also both describe research into alternatives that is in fact going on now. One statistic that interested me was that 70% of the GA fleet does not have the high compression engines that need high octane/leaded fuel. However, the 30% that does burns 70% of the gas. |
#13
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MoGas Tips, Tricks, Concerns, How To
It seemed as though the AOPA article ignored the proven success of
MoGas, but it did point out the very limited success of 100LL alternatives. I wonder if there are any more high compression engines running in test cells trying replacement fuels. It sounded like there was only one. |
#14
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MoGas Tips, Tricks, Concerns, How To
nrp wrote: It seemed as though the AOPA article ignored the proven success of MoGas, but it did point out the very limited success of 100LL alternatives. I wonder if there are any more high compression engines running in test cells trying replacement fuels. It sounded like there was only one. What is the proven success of Mogas? I mean, besides testimonials from its users on this newsgroup, what proof is there of Mogas success, and how would it be defined? For example in their article on fuel, Aviation Consumer had a sidebar on mogas saying it wasn't as good as advertised. They said several shop owners told them that when they get engines or cylinders in for work, they can immediately tell if the owner is running mogas by the corroded camshafts and deposits on the valves and seats. These shop owners claimed that the extra overhaul costs eliminate the mogas savings, and attribute it to the "varying additives" used in mogas and to the fact that most mogas sold doens't really meet the ASTM standards dictated by the STC. Personally I don't know, I have no experience with Mogas, all I have to go on is what I read here and in other sources. It would be a pity if this was correct, especially with rising 100LL prices. |
#15
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MoGas Tips, Tricks, Concerns, How To
I remember traveling in 1974 with a British engine engineering
consultant who was absolutely positive the US auto manufacturers were going to be in for a rude surprise when unleaded fuels were foist upon them by the EPA and the 1975 catalytic converter needs. He predicted valves and seats would quickly fail creating a massive maintenance problem. It never happened. Hardened valve seats were used from the beginning, and the reduction in engine contamination has given us longer service intervals and incredibly long lived automotive engines today. Where are the hardened seats for aircraft engines? Even something that recognizes some fuels don't have TEL in them? I've lived with over 20 years of autofuel in my O-320-E2D (one of the first STCs from Petersen) using low cruise powers, hoping to minimize valve seat recession. So far I've been very successful. The lack of a consistent airport distribution system to assure quality for MoGas after 20 years is crazy. There must be other forces at work that are not obvious to me. |
#16
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MoGas Tips, Tricks, Concerns, How To
I did not think the AOPA article ignored mogas. It is a solution for some
people, but not a solution for the market as a whole. You can't replace 100LL with mogas when 30% of the planes ( and 70% of the consumption ) can't use it. You could offer it in parallel with the 100LL, but that would require the small airports to pay for twice the deliveries, and have twice the pumping equipment. The airports would also have to figure out how to ensure the supply is not contaminated. Normal mogas delivery system is not used to keeping things to a life critical quality. There would also have to be changes in the tax code so that aviation taxes could be levied on the mogas. The revenuers job would get harder because they would have to make sure small airports didn't fill there tanks with mogas at the automobile tax rate. It is only fair that the mogas aviators pay their share of the FAA and ATC burden. I am not saying the infrastructure could not be changed to use mogas, but it would take the effort of the entire aviation community and the federal government. There is a lot of inertia to overcome to save a few bucks. I also agree with posters that claim that mogas can lead to early engine wear. The fuels may be equivalent under normal circumstances, but if the engine overheats, the low octane fuel will do a lot more damage than the high octane fuel. "nrp" wrote in message oups.com... I remember traveling in 1974 with a British engine engineering consultant who was absolutely positive the US auto manufacturers were going to be in for a rude surprise when unleaded fuels were foist upon them by the EPA and the 1975 catalytic converter needs. He predicted valves and seats would quickly fail creating a massive maintenance problem. It never happened. Hardened valve seats were used from the beginning, and the reduction in engine contamination has given us longer service intervals and incredibly long lived automotive engines today. Where are the hardened seats for aircraft engines? Even something that recognizes some fuels don't have TEL in them? I've lived with over 20 years of autofuel in my O-320-E2D (one of the first STCs from Petersen) using low cruise powers, hoping to minimize valve seat recession. So far I've been very successful. The lack of a consistent airport distribution system to assure quality for MoGas after 20 years is crazy. There must be other forces at work that are not obvious to me. |
#17
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MoGas Tips, Tricks, Concerns, How To
I also agree with posters that claim that mogas can lead to early engine
wear. The fuels may be equivalent under normal circumstances, but if the engine overheats, the low octane fuel will do a lot more damage than the high octane fuel. That is simply not true. Perpetuating a myth like that in this forum is not productive. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#18
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MoGas Tips, Tricks, Concerns, How To
For example in their article on fuel, Aviation Consumer had a sidebar
on mogas saying it wasn't as good as advertised. They said several shop owners told them that when they get engines or cylinders in for work, they can immediately tell if the owner is running mogas by the corroded camshafts and deposits on the valves and seats. These shop owners claimed that the extra overhaul costs eliminate the mogas savings, and attribute it to the "varying additives" used in mogas and to the fact that most mogas sold doens't really meet the ASTM standards dictated by the STC. I read that article, and it is the closest thing to total bull**** I've ever read on the subject. I can line up several shop owners who will absolutely contradict the statements of those supposed "shop owners". Nearly every INDEPENDENT shop owner I know (and that distinction seems to be critical here) will testify that engines that have ran on unleaded fuels are MUCH cleaner inside. They will tell you that they can tell instantly upon teardown whether someone has been burning 100 LL in an engine that was designed to run on 80 octane avgas, simply by the amount of crud inside. 100 LL has FOUR TIMES the amount of lead that my engine was designed to run with. As a result, spark plugs foul with lead far easier, making it necessary to aggressively lean the engine. Which, of course, in turn leads to much higher exhaust gas temperatures, and unnecessary wear and tear on the engine. The ONLY time I've ever had engine trouble with Atlas' O-540 was on a road trip where I was forced to run exclusively 100LL for days on end. I fouled a cylinder so badly that BOTH spark plugs ceased firing, requiring a quick return to the airport landing, (Not QUITE an emergency, but close...) I would run 87 octane unleaded car gas in my engine if it cost MORE than 100LL. My engine simply runs better and cleaner on it, and I will not run 100 LL unless I am forced to use it. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#19
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MoGas Tips, Tricks, Concerns, How To
Have to agree with you Jay. I've had both my engines apart before and
after running Mogas for some time and both were much cleaner after Mogas. Simply far less combustion chamber deposits, cleaner valves with no measurable valve seat change. I notice no difference in the way my 0-360 Lyc runs but a big improvement in the way my 0-300D Cont runs. One can forget about it until going cross country where no Mogas is available and it starts running finaky again. I figure if I'm too weak to lift a 5 gallon container of gas up onto the wing then I'm too weak to fly and better get another pass time (or let my wife do it. after all its her plane). Jim Jay Honeck wrote: For example in their article on fuel, Aviation Consumer had a sidebar on mogas saying it wasn't as good as advertised. They said several shop owners told them that when they get engines or cylinders in for work, they can immediately tell if the owner is running mogas by the corroded camshafts and deposits on the valves and seats. These shop owners claimed that the extra overhaul costs eliminate the mogas savings, and attribute it to the "varying additives" used in mogas and to the fact that most mogas sold doens't really meet the ASTM standards dictated by the STC. I read that article, and it is the closest thing to total bull**** I've ever read on the subject. I can line up several shop owners who will absolutely contradict the statements of those supposed "shop owners". Nearly every INDEPENDENT shop owner I know (and that distinction seems to be critical here) will testify that engines that have ran on unleaded fuels are MUCH cleaner inside. They will tell you that they can tell instantly upon teardown whether someone has been burning 100 LL in an engine that was designed to run on 80 octane avgas, simply by the amount of crud inside. 100 LL has FOUR TIMES the amount of lead that my engine was designed to run with. As a result, spark plugs foul with lead far easier, making it necessary to aggressively lean the engine. Which, of course, in turn leads to much higher exhaust gas temperatures, and unnecessary wear and tear on the engine. The ONLY time I've ever had engine trouble with Atlas' O-540 was on a road trip where I was forced to run exclusively 100LL for days on end. I fouled a cylinder so badly that BOTH spark plugs ceased firing, requiring a quick return to the airport landing, (Not QUITE an emergency, but close...) I would run 87 octane unleaded car gas in my engine if it cost MORE than 100LL. My engine simply runs better and cleaner on it, and I will not run 100 LL unless I am forced to use it. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#20
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MoGas Tips, Tricks, Concerns, How To
On 10 May 2006 13:24:27 -0700, "xyzzy" wrote:
For example in their article on fuel, Aviation Consumer had a sidebar on mogas saying it wasn't as good as advertised. They said several shop owners told them that when they get engines or cylinders in for work, they can immediately tell if the owner is running mogas by the corroded camshafts and deposits on the valves and seats. These shop owners claimed that the extra overhaul costs eliminate the mogas savings, and attribute it to the "varying additives" used in mogas and to the fact that most mogas sold doens't really meet the ASTM standards dictated by the STC. Junk science from the aircraft maintenance industry. Since auto gas STCs generally prohibit commercial operations, you can expect that if an airplane is being flown on auto gas that it's probably going to be on weekends by pilots who have to work for a living the rest of the week. That's the kind of operation that has already been documented to cause corrosion on camshafts, regardless of fuel. And as for deposits on valves, how could auto gas deposits be any worse than the deposits caused by 100LL? Lead deposits have been documented to cause valve burning, valve sticking, ring sticking, spark plug fouling, and in-flight engine failure. That's a major reason why we're running mogas. A claim like that might make sense if they noted a lack of deposits as being the indicator of auto gas operation. I'd be more impressed if these people would publish objective, scientifically controlled studies instead of anecdotal observations. As it happens, the only people who have done studies have found no problems with auto gas. It is noteworthy that the FAA has given its blessing to 82UL avgas, which, being based on auto gas, contains no lead. It's FAA approved, so it must be ok, right? Of course I doubt that anyone now living will ever see it at our local airports. And then there's NASCAR. After years of noise from environmentalists, NASCAR has announced that they've developed and are beginning to use an unleaded alternative to the leaded racing gasoline they'd been using, which was essentially the same stuff we fly with. Once the environmentalists get through with NASCAR, don't you wonder how long it'll take for them to draw a bead on us? They may ask that EPA start testing air quality around airports just like they asked the EPA to test air quality at NASCAR races. EPA says they're not interested in doing anything about avgas, but that could change with a single election or a single court decision. RK Henry |
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