On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 20:41:50 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote in
::

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 19:14:53 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 17:01:33 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote in
::

Unfortunately, military pilots often have their on-board radar set to
reject slow moving targets like light GA aircraft, so it isn't being
used for collision avoidance with civil aircraft. That should change.

And what military aircraft radars are using MTI with thresholds above
GA aircraft speeds?

As I recall, it was during the discussion of the November 16, 2000
MAC, that a military pilot mentioned in rec.aviation.military, that
military radars were not appropriate for traffic deconfliction (my
paraphrase).


They've also been trained to provide their
own separation and to operate in areas without the
all-seeing/all-knowing motherliness of Air Traffic Control.

Some have;some haven't:

How much training experience in the military aviation business do you
have? Stick with what you know--apparently Google searches are your
forte:

You can bluster all you like, but failing to acknowledge the
culpability of the military in each of the military/civil MAC NTSB
reports I cited, is tacit agreement that each was the fault of the
military flight.


Civil aircraft to the right of military aircraft:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...26X00109&key=1

F-16s lacked required ATC clearance:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X22313&key=1

A6 pilot expected to exit MTR eight minutes after route closu
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...11X12242&key=1

A6 hit glider that had right of way:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...13X33340&key=1

Nevertheless as Mr. Dighera incessantly points out, "stuff"
happens--

If I infer your intent correctly, the 'stuff' to which you
euphemistically refer are the deaths of civil pilots due to being
impaled in midair collisions by high-speed, low-level military
aircraft often on MTR runs.

Or, conversely the numbers of deaths of military pilots due to
mid-airs with GA pilots operating cluelessly in restricted, warning,
prohibited airspace, MOAs and oil burner routes.

That is interesting. I hadn't considered that, especially MOAs,
Warning, and Oil Burner Routes.

If civil flights cause a MAC in Restricted or Prohibited airspace due
to lack of a ATC clearance, they are culpable. But the others are
joint use airspace. Each civil and military flight within them is by
regulation responsible for visual see-and-avoid separation in VMC.

The military doesn't own MOAs, Warning, and Oil Burner Routes. The
source of the hazard, in my opinion, is the high speed of the military
aircraft affording insufficient time for successful traffic
deconfliction. That has to be acknowledged, and modifications made to
assure some likelihood of avoiding a MAC.

Perhaps you'd be good enough to invest the requisite time to research
representative NTSB reports that illustrate the types of MACs to which
you refer. That might be productive.

It's a two-edged sword, Larry.

Indeed.

but it ain't murder.

Some are, and some aren't.

Mid-airs aren't murder. Accidents happen. Most accident boards find
causative factors. But it isn't murder.

Florida law defines third-degree murder as the killing of a person
without intent or premeditation, a terminology that in other states
would closely match the interpretation of manslaughter crimes.

That makes it murder in Florida. Out.

But the military's miserable record in reprimanding its airmen who
wrongfully kill innocent pilots, and shortsighted safety initiatives
are pathetic.

You are the pathetic one with innuendo, hyperbole, exaggeration and
disgusting rhetoric.

I am unaware of any deliberate innuendo.

I would have to see examples of hyperbole to be able to find facts
that support those statements.

Perhaps it is your prejudice that obstructs your objective
comprehension of the facts, and makes you so incredulous as to think
you needn't bother with them.

No one goes out to have a mid-air.

I'll agree with you there. Just like no one intends to cause an auto
accident.

But certain flaws in judgment can constitute criminal negligence. And,
the FAA's regulatory exemption to system limitations can easily
precipitate a high-speed, low-level MAC. It's time the whole issue
were reexamined.

You've got to agree, that rocketing through congested
terminal airspace at 500 knots without the required ATC clearance,
lopping 9' of wingtip from a glider with an A6, and failing to see and
avoid a crop duster are manslaughter, which is called Third Degree
Murder in Florida.

Until you can show me some experience in flying a military tactical
aircraft in a leadership position of a flight of four in congested
airspace with weather factors involved, I'll simply discount your
commentary as someone with a fixation.


The flight to which that statement referred was a flight of two,
visibility 10 miles.

I am unable to find any reasonable excuse for what Parker did. It was
a clear day. He was descending into Class B airspace, canceled IFR,
and dove his flight of two into the terminal airspace at twice the
speed limit imposed on all other aircraft in that airspace without ATC
clearance. He may have lost situational awareness, but I find it
impossible to believe he didn't know that continuing his descent would
put him within Class B airspace without a clearance and without
communications with ATC. That's against regulations.

He broke other regulations in preparation for the flight. His failure
to comply with regulations resulted in the death of an ATP rated
airman, and the destruction of a $30-million aircraft, not to mention
the hazard he caused to those on the ground, his wingman, and other
flights. For this, he did not lose any pay, rank, nor have to pay a
fine nor restitution, nor was he incarcerated, as a civilian might be.
That is a public example of injustice. It does not endear the
military to the public, nor does it strike fear in the hearts of other
military airmen who would commit similar acts of hubris or
incompetence. Face it.

To turn a blind eye to the facts on the grounds that you have military
fighter experience, and I don't, is patently ridiculous, and telling.
Take the time to cool down a bit. Read the NTSB reports; they're
short and interesting. Invest the requisite time to mentally put
yourself in the position of the command pilot of each flight. Try to
envision what could be done to prevent that type of MAC from occurring
in the future.

Offer some constructive insight and information. You won't look so
shaken. And with your experience and additional point of view, we'll
ALL learn something.

Perhaps safety can be enhanced. What do you think?