Trailer tow vehicle fuel pumps

As there seems to be a lot of interest in X/C, landouts and retrieves,
possibly from remote areas, let me bring up a problem area - crappy electric
fuel pumps.
Most vehicles these days are fuel injected with an electric fuel pump in the
tank. These electric pumps, according to an informal survey of friends and
acquaintances, fail with alarming frequency - usually within ~50K miles and
each 50K thereafter. Failure will always occur without warning and in the
worst possible place and at the worst possible time.

According to my last tow truck driver, these crappy pumps provide him with a
nice business - he estimates 50% of his tows are failed pumps. The more
expensive the car, the more likely he is to tow it. The tow truck won't
tow your glider - just the car. This probably means leaving the trailer on
the roadside until you can come back for it. Not good.

A pump failure will cause instant engine stoppage and loss of power brakes
and steering. This means wrestling the car and glider trailer to the
roadside. Once you are on the roadside, you will find that no matter how
good you may be at fixing cars, there is nothing you can do but call a tow
truck since pump replacement requires a high bay hoist where the gas tank
can be removed. It just isn't a DIY job.

One popular solution among off-roaders is to replace the in-tank pump with
an external, in-line pump that CAN be replaced on the roadside. In fact,
I'm considering two pumps in parallel with check valves and an A/B switch in
the cab. I could then just flip the switch and be on my way. I'd replace
the failed pump at my convenience.

The downside of in-line pumps is they are noisy - at least they can be heard
operating in an otherwise quiet vehicle. Some soundproofing around the pump
can take care of this.



Bill Daniels

Bill,

One way to 'solve' the noisy fuel pump is to drive
a diesel pickup truck. Damn diesel engines are so
noisy, even at idle, they can drown out the sound of
a few extra fuel pumps, sirens, air horns, bickering
neighbors, howling dogs and screaming babies...

(I'm talking Ford, Chevy, Dodge (Cummins) diesels.
The Mercedes and Volkswagon diesels available in America
are quite civilized.)

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA



At 02:42 03 March 2007, Bill Daniels wrote:
As there seems to be a lot of interest in X/C, landouts
and retrieves,
possibly from remote areas, let me bring up a problem
area - crappy electric
fuel pumps.
Most vehicles these days are fuel injected with an
electric fuel pump in the
tank. These electric pumps, according to an informal
survey of friends and
acquaintances, fail with alarming frequency - usually
within ~50K miles and
each 50K thereafter. Failure will always occur without
warning and in the
worst possible place and at the worst possible time.

According to my last tow truck driver, these crappy
pumps provide him with a
nice business - he estimates 50% of his tows are failed
pumps. The more
expensive the car, the more likely he is to tow it.
The tow truck won't
tow your glider - just the car. This probably means
leaving the trailer on
the roadside until you can come back for it. Not good.

A pump failure will cause instant engine stoppage and
loss of power brakes
and steering. This means wrestling the car and glider
trailer to the
roadside. Once you are on the roadside, you will find
that no matter how
good you may be at fixing cars, there is nothing you
can do but call a tow
truck since pump replacement requires a high bay hoist
where the gas tank
can be removed. It just isn't a DIY job.

One popular solution among off-roaders is to replace
the in-tank pump with
an external, in-line pump that CAN be replaced on the
roadside. In fact,
I'm considering two pumps in parallel with check valves
and an A/B switch in
the cab. I could then just flip the switch and be
on my way. I'd replace
the failed pump at my convenience.

The downside of in-line pumps is they are noisy - at
least they can be heard
operating in an otherwise quiet vehicle. Some soundproofing
around the pump
can take care of this.



Bill Daniels

On Mar 2, 6:51 pm, Ray Lovinggood
wrote:
Bill,

One way to 'solve' the noisy fuel pump is to drive
a diesel pickup truck. Damn diesel engines are so
noisy, even at idle, they can drown out the sound of
a few extra fuel pumps, sirens, air horns, bickering
neighbors, howling dogs and screaming babies...

(I'm talking Ford, Chevy, Dodge (Cummins) diesels.
The Mercedes and Volkswagon diesels available in America
are quite civilized.)

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

Actually Ray,

The new diesel pickup engines are required to meet EPA noise and
emmission standards and you'll find new Dodge Cummins are very quiet.
If you hear one, you will be surprised. I suspect the Ford and
Chevy's are as well because everyone has to meet the new (2005) fed
regs. The Dodge lift pumps on 2nd gen. Cummins powered trucks are
known to fail around 30k miles, with some on the 3rd gen as well, but
hey, that's life. I've had two Dodge Cummins pickups in the past 4
years, never had anything fail, ever, on either vehicle, same with my
two Volvo station wagons. Buy quality and it pays in the long run.

Jim

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 2, 6:51 pm, Ray Lovinggood
wrote:
Bill,

One way to 'solve' the noisy fuel pump is to drive
a diesel pickup truck. Damn diesel engines are so
noisy, even at idle, they can drown out the sound of
a few extra fuel pumps, sirens, air horns, bickering
neighbors, howling dogs and screaming babies...

(I'm talking Ford, Chevy, Dodge (Cummins) diesels.
The Mercedes and Volkswagon diesels available in America
are quite civilized.)

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

Actually Ray,

The new diesel pickup engines are required to meet EPA noise and
emmission standards and you'll find new Dodge Cummins are very quiet.
If you hear one, you will be surprised. I suspect the Ford and
Chevy's are as well because everyone has to meet the new (2005) fed
regs. The Dodge lift pumps on 2nd gen. Cummins powered trucks are
known to fail around 30k miles, with some on the 3rd gen as well, but
hey, that's life. I've had two Dodge Cummins pickups in the past 4
years, never had anything fail, ever, on either vehicle, same with my
two Volvo station wagons. Buy quality and it pays in the long run.

Jim


Two vehicles in four years would not seem qualify one to assess "the long
run".

On Mar 4, 5:40 am, "Michael McNulty"
wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...

On Mar 2, 6:51 pm, Ray Lovinggood
wrote:
Bill,

One way to 'solve' the noisy fuel pump is to drive
a diesel pickup truck. Damn diesel engines are so
noisy, even at idle, they can drown out the sound of
a few extra fuel pumps, sirens, air horns, bickering
neighbors, howling dogs and screaming babies...

(I'm talking Ford, Chevy, Dodge (Cummins) diesels.
The Mercedes and Volkswagon diesels available in America
are quite civilized.)

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

Actually Ray,

The new diesel pickup engines are required to meet EPA noise and
emmission standards and you'll find new Dodge Cummins are very quiet.
If you hear one, you will be surprised. I suspect the Ford and
Chevy's are as well because everyone has to meet the new (2005) fed
regs. The Dodge lift pumps on 2nd gen. Cummins powered trucks are
known to fail around 30k miles, with some on the 3rd gen as well, but
hey, that's life. I've had two Dodge Cummins pickups in the past 4
years, never had anything fail, ever, on either vehicle, same with my
two Volvo station wagons. Buy quality and it pays in the long run.

Jim

Two vehicles in four years would not seem qualify one to assess "the long
run".


I trade them in when the tires wear down, hate to buy a full set of
tires for a dually! The Volvos I keep, last one was 8 years. I suppose
results may vary.

Jim

These electric pumps, according to an informal survey of friends and
acquaintances, fail with alarming frequency - usually within ~50K miles and
each 50K thereafter.

That's counter to my personal experience. I've done four fuel pumps
for my Volvo tow vehicles; none of them let go prior to the 200,000
mile mark. All of the replacements outlasted the vehicles.

Once you are on the roadside, you will find that no matter how
good you may be at fixing cars, there is nothing you can do but call a tow
truck since pump replacement requires a high bay hoist where the gas tank
can be removed. It just isn't a DIY job.

Disagree:

A) Everything is DIY for the resourceful and motivated.

B) All of the cars for which I've replaced the in-tank pump allowed
access through a panel in the trunk or under the cargo deck. None so
far have required dropping the tank.

C) For many cars with Bosch K-Jetronic, LH-Jetronic, and similar
systems, there are actually two pumps: an in-tank centrifugal pump and
an external constant-displacement pump. The in-tank pump just delivers
fuel to the main pump, and is critical only at 1/4 tank fuel level and
below. The usual sign of a failed or failing in-tank pump is poor
running below 1/4 tank, and whining noises from the main pump.

D) In my experience, failure of fuel pump relays is far more common
than failure of the pump. Usually they can be fixed by peeling them
open and resoldering the crack-prone joints where the heavy relay
frame meets the circuit board.

In article .com,
"Bob Kuykendall" wrote:

These electric pumps, according to an informal survey of friends and
acquaintances, fail with alarming frequency - usually within ~50K miles and
each 50K thereafter.

That's counter to my personal experience. I've done four fuel pumps
for my Volvo tow vehicles; none of them let go prior to the 200,000
mile mark. All of the replacements outlasted the vehicles.

Once you are on the roadside, you will find that no matter how
good you may be at fixing cars, there is nothing you can do but call a tow
truck since pump replacement requires a high bay hoist where the gas tank
can be removed. It just isn't a DIY job.

Disagree:

A) Everything is DIY for the resourceful and motivated.

B) All of the cars for which I've replaced the in-tank pump allowed
access through a panel in the trunk or under the cargo deck. None so
far have required dropping the tank.

C) For many cars with Bosch K-Jetronic, LH-Jetronic, and similar
systems, there are actually two pumps: an in-tank centrifugal pump and
an external constant-displacement pump. The in-tank pump just delivers
fuel to the main pump, and is critical only at 1/4 tank fuel level and
below. The usual sign of a failed or failing in-tank pump is poor
running below 1/4 tank, and whining noises from the main pump.

D) In my experience, failure of fuel pump relays is far more common
than failure of the pump. Usually they can be fixed by peeling them
open and resoldering the crack-prone joints where the heavy relay
frame meets the circuit board.

My tow vehicle is a '92 Dodge full size hightop van, 6 cylinder. It only
has one fuel pump and it's in the tank. No access to it from on top. The
tank has to be dropped. The fuel pump failed at 140k miles - exactly at
the halfway point of a 350 mile trip - on Thanksgiving day.

Nearly every system on this van has had a failure. I think I've replaced
everything but the engine block and one of the hubcaps. I really enjoy
the hightop room, but this thing is a piece of crap. Glad I didn't pay
much for it. Oh, and take a look at the repair manual for these things.
Dodge full size vans had essentially no mechanical changes from 1977
through at least 2001. So much for innovation and improvement. If Toyota
ever makes a full size van, I'm gettin' one.

On Mar 3, 12:58 am, Berry wrote:
In article .com,
"Bob Kuykendall" wrote:



These electric pumps, according to an informal survey of friends and
acquaintances, fail with alarming frequency - usually within ~50K miles and
each 50K thereafter.

That's counter to my personal experience. I've done four fuel pumps
for my Volvo tow vehicles; none of them let go prior to the 200,000
mile mark. All of the replacements outlasted the vehicles.

Once you are on the roadside, you will find that no matter how
good you may be at fixing cars, there is nothing you can do but call a tow
truck since pump replacement requires a high bay hoist where the gas tank
can be removed. It just isn't a DIY job.

Disagree:

A) Everything is DIY for the resourceful and motivated.

B) All of the cars for which I've replaced the in-tank pump allowed
access through a panel in the trunk or under the cargo deck. None so
far have required dropping the tank.

C) For many cars with Bosch K-Jetronic, LH-Jetronic, and similar
systems, there are actually two pumps: an in-tank centrifugal pump and
an external constant-displacement pump. The in-tank pump just delivers
fuel to the main pump, and is critical only at 1/4 tank fuel level and
below. The usual sign of a failed or failing in-tank pump is poor
running below 1/4 tank, and whining noises from the main pump.

D) In my experience, failure of fuel pump relays is far more common
than failure of the pump. Usually they can be fixed by peeling them
open and resoldering the crack-prone joints where the heavy relay
frame meets the circuit board.

My tow vehicle is a '92 Dodge full size hightop van, 6 cylinder. It only
has one fuel pump and it's in the tank. No access to it from on top. The
tank has to be dropped. The fuel pump failed at 140k miles - exactly at
the halfway point of a 350 mile trip - on Thanksgiving day.

Nearly every system on this van has had a failure. I think I've replaced
everything but the engine block and one of the hubcaps. I really enjoy
the hightop room, but this thing is a piece of crap. Glad I didn't pay
much for it. Oh, and take a look at the repair manual for these things.
Dodge full size vans had essentially no mechanical changes from 1977
through at least 2001. So much for innovation and improvement. If Toyota
ever makes a full size van, I'm gettin' one.

Bill,
why the sudden concern about landing out? and finding any reason
possible to avoid it at all costs? Mechanical breakdowns are a
possibility no matter what we drive (or fly). Its something we may
have to deal with and a risk we take.

wrote:

why the sudden concern about landing out? and finding any reason
possible to avoid it at all costs? Mechanical breakdowns are a
possibility no matter what we drive (or fly). Its something we may
have to deal with and a risk we take.

Aren't you flying something that resembles more a hollowed-out log
than a mechanical device?

It's almost flyin' time again, and we are just getting antsy, that's
all. There's almost nothing else left to think about now, except
trailer and tow-car breakdowns, parachute water landings, and of
course the Cherry-Patch.


Jack

Aren't you flying something that resembles more a hollowed-out log
than a mechanical device?


HA. Only when Im in my glider. That other 2 or 300 hours I get in
the air every year is behind a stinky loud engine. Sometimes 2!