Validation problem

At 12:30 05 December 2004, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
X-no-archive: yes
In article , Ian Cant writes
Yes. But equally, the third-party software providers
[like SeeYou] should be encouraged to ensure that their
download software is and remains fully compatible with
FAI validity checking requirements. I suspect that
in practice more people like to download with full
analysis software rather than download first with hardware
manufacturer's programs and then open into analysis
packages.

Ian

The whole point Ian, is that third party software should
use the latest
version of the manufacturers DLL (which is freeware),
then the download
and validation performed by via program will be up
to date by default.
In other words, the manufacturer's DLL becomes an integral
part of the
analysis software.

I would expect that when these DLLs become available,
writers of
analysis packages will not be slow to interface into
them. The interface
is published in the Flight Recorder Specification Document
and has been
for some time.


If that were so, Tim, then downloads using e.g. SeeYou
would be identical in validity to those used by Filser's
latest freeware [even if that is not itself fully Windows-compatib
le]. But that is demonstrably not the case, to the
extent that the SSA specifically advises against using
SeeYou for badge/record downloads.

I hope that SeeYou and Filser both have someone who
reads ras !

Ian

While a publicly available DLL as free software may be part of a solution,
the problem is likely to happen again and again as hardware and software
evolve. It would be nice if IGC realised that computer and PC are not
synonyms nor operating system and DOS and rather than mandating some piece
of software for an arbirarily choosen computer and operationg system, or
beside that, they asked the manufacturer to publish the specifications of
the downloading protocol. BTW how do people writing analysis and downloading
software like SeeYou know these specifications?

X-no-archive: yes
In article , Ian Cant REMOVE_TO_REPLY.i
writes
At 12:30 05 December 2004, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
---snip--------
The whole point Ian, is that third party software should
use the latest
version of the manufacturers DLL (which is freeware),
then the download
and validation performed by via program will be up
to date by default.
In other words, the manufacturer's DLL becomes an integral
part of the
analysis software.

I would expect that when these DLLs become available,
writers of
analysis packages will not be slow to interface into
them. The interface
is published in the Flight Recorder Specification Document
and has been
for some time.


If that were so, Tim, then downloads using e.g. SeeYou
would be identical in validity to those used by Filser's
latest freeware [even if that is not itself fully Windows-compatib
le]. But that is demonstrably not the case, to the
extent that the SSA specifically advises against using
SeeYou for badge/record downloads.

When/if a DLL for LXNavigation products becomes available (not Filser,
they just market it) the DLL can be used by both SeeYou and other
programs as it should be invisible what program has performed the
download.

I don't use SeeYou, but TaskNav calls the DOS program to perform
downloads for various recorders. This can create problems and many
people have reported these, especially when the serial port connection
is via a USB adapter. When the application (whatever it may be) can
simply call a manufacturer's DLL and run the whole thing as a Windows
Task I expect to see a vast reduction in download failures.

I hope that SeeYou and Filser both have someone who
reads ras !

AIRC, SeeYou and LXNavigation are written by the same team. They have
been aware of the need to produce a DLL, but so far nothing has been
forthcoming. I would not dream of discouraging anyone from mailing them
@lxnavigation.si and @seeyou.ws

Perhaps some pressure from their clients would help concentrate their
minds. It is hard to see what more IGC can do to progress this.

OK, they could cancel their approval until they do conform, after all it
is now part of the specification for an Approved Recorder, but I would
guess that would be as welcome as a fart in a space suit.

Over to you...

Tim Newport-Peace

"Indecision is the Key to Flexibility."

Hi
When the application (whatever it may be) can
simply call a manufacturer's DLL and run the whole thing as a Windows
Task I expect to see a vast reduction in download failures.

If the manufacturer cannot produce a program that reliably works with
any connection, be it direct serial or via a USB-Adapter, why do you
expect he can produce a DLL that does?

Specifying a common interface (calls to make by the program) is a
very good thing and DLLs are the windows-way to do so. But the presence
of any program with its commandline-parameters is just as good to use
as well-defined interface.

This does not address the problem of missing serial ports at all I might
think.

Plus there is no support for different Operating Systems.

Have provisions been made for multiple loggers or will the user have to
copy/rename Interface-DLLs around?

Ciao, MM
--
Marian Aldenhövel, Rosenhain 23, 53123 Bonn. +49 228 624013.
http://www.marian-aldenhoevel.de
"Flying an An-2 is like making love to a fat lady who's had too much to drink:
there's a lot to work with, it's unresponsive, you're never quite sure when
you're there, and it's big-time ugly."

Marian Aldenhövel wrote:
If the manufacturer cannot produce a program that reliably works with
any connection, be it direct serial or via a USB-Adapter, why do you
expect he can produce a DLL that does?

The programs required by earlier revisions of the flight recorder
specification were DOS programs. As such, some were written using older
DOS calls which are not fully compatible with serial support in the
current versions of Windows. The DLLs will be written using the Win32
API, which will eliminate most, if not all, of the compatibility issues
with USB serial adapters.

Have provisions been made for multiple loggers or will the user have to
copy/rename Interface-DLLs around?

Provisions have been made for multiple DLLs. They need only be placed
in a common directory. The application framework includes a call which
enumerates all available IGC interface DLLs, to allow the appropriate
one to be selected.

Marc

A friend and I use SeeYou and Volksloggers. I had validation problems
but he shared his method with me. He has sucessfully used this to
submit valid data for state record verification. As a practice he first
copies the data from the VL using the Connection Wizard directly onto a
floppy. You can choose the destination with the Wizard, just browse to
the A: drive. Then you will have a clean copy before SeeYou starts
working on it.

I have attempted to use the VL Dos program for downloads during
contessts but the time it takes (am I doing something wrong here?) is a
serious problem considering you only have an hour from landing to
submittal of your data. So I used SeeYou instead. This method was
accepted at the Nationals and one Sports Class Regional, but
invalidated my Nevada state record attempt! Go figure.


Ian Cant wrote:
At 12:30 05 December 2004, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
X-no-archive: yes
In article , Ian Cant writes
Yes. But equally, the third-party software providers
[like SeeYou] should be encouraged to ensure that their
download software is and remains fully compatible with
FAI validity checking requirements. I suspect that
in practice more people like to download with full
analysis software rather than download first with hardware
manufacturer's programs and then open into analysis
packages.

Ian

The whole point Ian, is that third party software should
use the latest
version of the manufacturers DLL (which is freeware),
then the download
and validation performed by via program will be up
to date by default.
In other words, the manufacturer's DLL becomes an integral
part of the
analysis software.

I would expect that when these DLLs become available,
writers of
analysis packages will not be slow to interface into
them. The interface
is published in the Flight Recorder Specification Document
and has been
for some time.


If that were so, Tim, then downloads using e.g. SeeYou
would be identical in validity to those used by Filser's
latest freeware [even if that is not itself fully Windows-compatib
le]. But that is demonstrably not the case, to the
extent that the SSA specifically advises against using
SeeYou for badge/record downloads.

I hope that SeeYou and Filser both have someone who
reads ras !

Ian

All,

I had high hopes when I googled and found this thread. I'm trying to
help a buddy solve his VALI problems with a Volkslogger. Sitting here
with my high-powered XP laptop I figured I'd be all set. However, it
looks like I'm screwed.

To recap:

1. Can't run some of the older DOS-based VALI programs (e.g. Garrecht
VL) under XP as the NT-based emulator throws an exception ("something
something something 16-bit something something error" CANCEL).

2. Would love to boot DOS from a floppy, except that the floppy drive
is SOOO 1990's; ie. there isn't one on this machine.

3. Not sure that I have the energy to create a DOS partition on my
hard-drive (nor that my quasi "locked down" image would be permissable
on the company network).

So, I'm hosed unless I un-crate the old desktop that runs 98. Correct?
P3

Try looking at
http://support.microsoft.com/default...b;en-us;324767
If that is your problem then the above should fix it. Not reason why a vali
program shouldn't work. Any DOS program that uses the com posts is another
matter.

Basil

"Papa3" wrote in message
oups.com...
All,

I had high hopes when I googled and found this thread. I'm trying to
help a buddy solve his VALI problems with a Volkslogger. Sitting here
with my high-powered XP laptop I figured I'd be all set. However, it
looks like I'm screwed.

To recap:

1. Can't run some of the older DOS-based VALI programs (e.g. Garrecht
VL) under XP as the NT-based emulator throws an exception ("something
something something 16-bit something something error" CANCEL).

2. Would love to boot DOS from a floppy, except that the floppy drive
is SOOO 1990's; ie. there isn't one on this machine.

3. Not sure that I have the energy to create a DOS partition on my
hard-drive (nor that my quasi "locked down" image would be permissable
on the company network).

So, I'm hosed unless I un-crate the old desktop that runs 98. Correct?
P3

In message .com,
Papa3 writes
All,

I had high hopes when I googled and found this thread. I'm trying to
help a buddy solve his VALI problems with a Volkslogger. Sitting here
with my high-powered XP laptop I figured I'd be all set. However, it
looks like I'm screwed.

To recap:

1. Can't run some of the older DOS-based VALI programs (e.g. Garrecht
VL) under XP as the NT-based emulator throws an exception ("something
something something 16-bit something something error" CANCEL).

2. Would love to boot DOS from a floppy, except that the floppy drive
is SOOO 1990's; ie. there isn't one on this machine.

3. Not sure that I have the energy to create a DOS partition on my
hard-drive (nor that my quasi "locked down" image would be permissable
on the company network).

So, I'm hosed unless I un-crate the old desktop that runs 98. Correct?
P3

Yup,
You won't get real historic DOS progs to run on XP anyway, your best bet
is to set an old fashioned box up with 95 or 98, or (scary thought) find
one that's archaic enough to run real MSDOS.

MSDOS it's self won't actually run properly on a lot of the new boxes as
there are bits of the architecture that need the new OSs to work.

Robin
--
Robin Birch

X-no-archive: yes
In article .com,
Papa3 writes
All,

I had high hopes when I googled and found this thread. I'm trying to
help a buddy solve his VALI problems with a Volkslogger. Sitting here
with my high-powered XP laptop I figured I'd be all set. However, it
looks like I'm screwed.

To recap:

1. Can't run some of the older DOS-based VALI programs (e.g. Garrecht
VL) under XP as the NT-based emulator throws an exception ("something
something something 16-bit something something error" CANCEL).

2. Would love to boot DOS from a floppy, except that the floppy drive
is SOOO 1990's; ie. there isn't one on this machine.

3. Not sure that I have the energy to create a DOS partition on my
hard-drive (nor that my quasi "locked down" image would be permissable
on the company network).

So, I'm hosed unless I un-crate the old desktop that runs 98. Correct?
P3

Hi Erik,

I am afraid that problems running DOS are not going to go away, but are
likely to increase, the use of USB = Serial converter is a case in
point.

For this reason, some while ago GFAC wrote a specification for a DLL and
required all manufacturers to provide such a DLL by 1st July 2004. Marc
Ramsey also provided a shell program, see the IGC web page:
http://www.fai.org:81/gliding/gnss/freeware.asp

It is also anticipated that analysis programs would also use the DLLs to
enable the support for downloading etc.

So far only Peschges have complied even though it is mandatory, nor just
an option.

If Volkslogger had complied, your problem would not exist as what you
want to do could be done in a 32-bit Windows environment.

I encourage you, and anyone else who perceived the continued use of DOS
programs to be a problem (all lap-top owners?), to email the
manufacturer concerned and lobby them to supply the windows DLL, which
they should have done by last July.

Perhaps customer pressure will work without the need for IGC to resort
to more draconian measures (suspension of IGC approval).

Best regards,

Tim Newport-Peace

"Indecision is the Key to Flexibility."