Clearance with an Odd Intersection

"Jose" wrote in message
...
Actually, he knows it's the latter, but he also sees the big picture.

And the big picture is that if you give me (and I read back) a clearance
with which I cannot comply, we will negotiate a better clearance and we'll
both end up happy. But if I go NORDO at that moment, I will not place
myself in danger by flying a clearance I've discovered (after the fact -
it cannot be discovered before the fact) that would interrupt the rescue
squad's bridge game.

You've said many times that for a NORDO you clear the airspace. Well,
I'll take advantage of that.

I suppose it works out most of the time, since most aircraft do not go
NORDO at that moment, but I've been given bum routings many times in the
Northeast. I do not fly a Lear and cannot do all the tricks that other
aircraft can do. There are some circumstances that would put me in
danger, and I won't know you just gave me one until after I've looked at
the charts. Unlike a London cabbie, I do not have the airspace memorized.

I understand the need for expedience. But I'm surprised that there's no
provision for "can't accept until I find it all on the charts."

Surely, the answer is to copy the clearance and ask the controller to
standby for the readback. Check the routing and then ask the controller if
he is ready to copy the readback.

who says the read back has to be instantaneous

The correct response is: "Standby."
This one word connotes that you are evaluating the route and your options.
Your next communication may be to request a clarification, negotiate a
different route that you notice as you look at the reroute, or flat out
refuse the clearance.
Miami Center kept trying to route me out over the ocean numberous times
after I refused a reroute. They tried to get me to fly an assigned
heading which was exactly the heading for the airway reroute. Even after
being advised that there was no floatation gear onboard and the reroute
would put me in violation of the FAR's, the controllers response was,
"Your not going to be out there that long."
When you are used to working multiengine jet transports the times are
minimal, but for a single engine piston, the time would be 30 minutes.

Jose wrote:
OK, so how do I acknowledge that I have heard and understood (correctly)
the clearance you have given me, but am NOT accepting it until I can
verify that it won't take me sixty miles out over the ocean?

... there was no floatation gear onboard and the reroute would put me in
violation of the FAR's ...

Was the flight for hire?

No. Personal flight with my family onboard.
Part 91 requires floatation gear for flight beyond gliding range.

Barry wrote:
... there was no floatation gear onboard and the reroute would put me in
violation of the FAR's ...

Was the flight for hire?

On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 16:02:09 GMT, jsmith wrote:

No. Personal flight with my family onboard.
Part 91 requires floatation gear for flight beyond gliding range.



I don't think so.




Barry wrote:
... there was no floatation gear onboard and the reroute would put me in
violation of the FAR's ...

Was the flight for hire?

..

No. Personal flight with my family onboard.
Part 91 requires floatation gear for flight beyond gliding range.

The only Part 91 requirements I'm aware of (except for some helicopter ops)
are 91.205b(12), which applies only when operating for hire, and 91.509, which
applies only to large, turbine-powered, or fractional ownership aircraft. I
would also refuse to fly far off-shore without flotation equipment, but I'm
pretty sure it's not prohibited by the regs. I do occasionally fly beyond
gliding range for short periods.

Barry wrote:
No. Personal flight with my family onboard.
Part 91 requires floatation gear for flight beyond gliding range.


The only Part 91 requirements I'm aware of (except for some helicopter ops)
are 91.205b(12), which applies only when operating for hire, and 91.509, which
applies only to large, turbine-powered, or fractional ownership aircraft. I
would also refuse to fly far off-shore without flotation equipment, but I'm
pretty sure it's not prohibited by the regs. I do occasionally fly beyond
gliding range for short periods.


I used to fly over Chesapeake Bay in my Pitts a lot. This airplane has
about the same glide angle as a man hole cover so I just made sure there
were plenty of boats around to ask for a lift. I'm a good swimmer and
alone in the airplane.

IMC with other people in the airplane? Errr, No. Don't really care
what the FAA thinks.

cfeyeeye opined

On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 13:28:53 GMT, jsmith wrote:

The correct response is: "Standby."


He said he wanted to " acknowledge that I have heard and undestood
(correctly) the clearance"

"Standby" doesn't do it.

What is needed is something like a readback that means "do I have the new
clearance correct" followed by "give me a chance to see if I can accept it".
It seems that currently that a readback means you have accepted the new
clearance. Which is a problem.

This one word connotes that you are evaluating the route and your options.
Your next communication may be to request a clarification, negotiate a
different route that you notice as you look at the reroute, or flat out
refuse the clearance.
Miami Center kept trying to route me out over the ocean numberous times
after I refused a reroute. They tried to get me to fly an assigned
heading which was exactly the heading for the airway reroute. Even after
being advised that there was no floatation gear onboard and the reroute
would put me in violation of the FAR's, the controllers response was,
"Your not going to be out there that long."
When you are used to working multiengine jet transports the times are
minimal, but for a single engine piston, the time would be 30 minutes.

Jose wrote:
OK, so how do I acknowledge that I have heard and understood (correctly)
the clearance you have given me, but am NOT accepting it until I can
verify that it won't take me sixty miles out over the ocean?



-ash
Cthulhu in 2005!
Why wait for nature?

Yes it does... STANDBY means exactly that, STANDBY.
When you have something pertinent to respond with, you will respond.
Until that time, he/she will have to wait.

On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 13:28:53 GMT, jsmith wrote:
The correct response is: "Standby."

wrote:
He said he wanted to " acknowledge that I have heard and undestood
(correctly) the clearance"
"Standby" doesn't do it.

"jsmith" wrote in message
...

Yes it does...

No it doesn't, you're confusing STAND BY with ROGER.



STANDBY means exactly that, STANDBY.
When you have something pertinent to respond with, you will respond. Until
that time, he/she will have to wait.


STAND BY means the pilot must pause for a few seconds, usually to attend to
other duties of a higher priority.