question on student taxi practice

Peter Duniho wrote:
You're the one who went off on an entirely incorrect criticism of Todd's
post. All I did (along with others) was to correct you.

"Correct" me all you want if it makes you happy. I happen to be a
certified flight instructor and that investment in training and
experience leads me down the path of thinking that it would be
very poor judgment indeed for a CFI to encourage or allow a student
pilot without a solo endorsement to operate an aircraft, even if
'only' in taxi. If an incident ocurred the CFI could (and probably
would) be cited.


Are you saying that your inability to believe the truth IS relevant to
whether it's the truth or not?

Someone's being an asshole here, but it ain't me.


Whatever.

The long and short of it is very simple.

What: Taxi
Why: To maneuver the airplane on the ground from the parking area to the
takeoff area, maintenance area or fueling area.
How: See the PTS.

It is NOT common practice to allow a presolo student to taxi around the
airport, thereby increasing traffic, and increasing risk for all others
unnecessarily. It may be legal but it is not wise.

What happened to judgment?



"Judah" wrote in message
. ..
I'm no expert, but I believe that in a part 61 flight school no specific
structure is enforced upon instructors in their training of the Practical
Test Standards. However, the Private Pilot Practical Test Standards do
specifically require, in "Area II: Preflight Procedures, Task D: Taxiing",
that a private pilot be able to

1. Exhibit knowledge of the elements related to safe taxi procedures.
2. Perform a brake check immediately after the airplane begins
moving.
3. Position the flight controls properly for the existing wind conditions.
4. Control direction and speed without excessive use of brakes.
5. Comply with airport/taxiway markings, signals, ATC clearances,
and instructions.
6. Taxi so as to avoid other aircraft and hazards.

Personally, my instructors never had me taxi solo before flying solo - we
had 10 hours of flight time during which some percentage of that involved
taxiing and we covered taxiing enough in that process, that I was able to
eventually meet the PTS standards. And quite frankly, based on the rates
for taxiing a plane on a hobbs meter, I probably would not have been eager
to spend time taxiing separately anyway.

But all we know here is that a CFI asked a 2-hour time student to go taxi
an airplane. We don't know anything else about the circumstances around
this or the reasons that the CFI asked him to do this - or perhaps if the
student, in his eagerness to spend time learning to fly, wanted to get
some
plane time while his CFI was with another student or otherwise
unavailable...

It wasn't me, and I don't care what the FAA thinks. I'll rephrase my
question. Is it a usual and accepted practice for a CFI to let a 2
hour time, pre solo student taxi around unsupervised solo ?

You can't get a little pregnant, neither can you almost fly
an airplane.

Taxiing is not "almost flying" an airplane. It is "not flying" an airplane.

A non-yet soled student can have an accident
at 10 mph, even death is not unheard of at low speeds.

A 20,000 ATP CFI can have an accident at low speeds, and if he kills
himself he's just as dead. Ratings are not a shield. Your statement is
irrelevant.

That is my opinion and your are entitled to
your opinion if you are a certified flight instructor.

I am entitled to my opinion even if all I do is draw pictures of
airplanes and make engine noises in my cubicle.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

The facts are (and the FARs are very clear) that to be signed off for
solo operation of an airplane the student must have received and logged
training in virtually every aspect of airplane operation.

.... then how can non-pilots taxi solo safely and legally? They do all
the time.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
... then how can non-pilots taxi solo safely and legally? They do all
the time.

Earth to Jose... HELLLOOO... those individuals get special training and
are licensed to perform aircraft surface movement operations within the
constraints of their job functions, and within limited areas. I doubt
they have a blanket authorization to taxi an airplane out to a runway.

We are NOT talking about THOSe sorts of indivisuals we are talking about
a student with just a few hours of training, supposedly asked to "go taxi
an airplane around" for the purposes of learning how to do it.

Sheesh...

"ktbr" wrote in message
...
"Correct" me all you want if it makes you happy. I happen to be a
certified flight instructor

Whoopee. Lots of CFIs don't have their facts straight.

and that investment in training and
experience leads me down the path of thinking that it would be
very poor judgment indeed for a CFI to encourage or allow a student
pilot without a solo endorsement to operate an aircraft, even if
'only' in taxi.

Indeed it probably would be. I agree that a student should not be solo
taxiing until they are qualified for solo flight, and have the necessary
solo endorsement.

However, that isn't the question you replied to, nor is it the response you
gave. Regardless of what is prudent and reasonable, it is LEGAL for a
non-pilot to taxi an airplane, student or otherwise.

If an incident ocurred the CFI could (and probably
would) be cited.

Not if it were during a taxi operation, on the ground, not in flight.

Pete

"kontiki" wrote in message
...

Earth to Jose... HELLLOOO... those individuals get special training and
are licensed to perform aircraft surface movement operations within the
constraints of their job functions, and within limited areas. I doubt
they have a blanket authorization to taxi an airplane out to a runway.


What are the requirements for an aircraft surface movement license? Where
is such a license required?

You and I are so diametrically opposed in our opinions on how to conduct
flight instruction that at this point I think I'll just hope we can agree to
disagree and bid each other a friendly goodbye :-)
Dudley Henriques

"Jose" wrote in message
...
That isn't the issues here. The issue is instructor judgment. [...]
Making a case for allowing a 2 hour student to taxi an airplane
unsupervised is something you might want to revisit.

Well, all we know about the pilot is that he is a "two hour student",
which doesn't say much. The same argument you made could be made for IFR
flight - allowing a ten hour student to fly an airplane all by himself,
through the air, and a hundred miles an hour, even though he is not ready
to fly in instrument conditions. The issue =there= is also instructor
judgement. However, the lack of instrument experience has no bearing if
the student is not going to fly on instruments. Likewise, the (presumed)
lack of ability to fly through the air safely and land gently has no
bearing if the student is only going to taxi at ten knots with a
nosewheel.

Instructor judgement would include this.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

You and I are so diametrically opposed in our opinions on how to conduct
flight instruction that at this point I think I'll just hope we can agree to
disagree and bid each other a friendly goodbye :-)
Dudley Henriques

"Jose" wrote in message
t...
Doing this in my opinion fogs the issue of pilot responsibility for the
student, who can now easily start to believe that responsibility for the
safety of an airplane can be assumed in steps....or gradually, as the
case may be.

I disagree. It is not the responsibility that is transferred in steps,
but rather, the authority (whether self imposed or not). A pilot who is
endorsed for solo flight has full responsibility for the flight during all
its stages, but is not (typically) authorized to fly at night or on
instruments. That comes later, with experience (and often, with other
endorsements, which could include certification). A smart, newly minted
instrument pilot does not give himself the =authority= (I'm stretching the
word here but I trust you get the concept) to fly in convective activity,
the edge of icing conditions, or widespread low IFR; that too comes later
with experience (and equipment capability). But the responsibility for
the flight always rests with the pilot.

I don't see how letting a student (who has demonstrated his ability,
irrespective of the number of hours he has) taxi an airplane solo prior to
being ready for and endorsed for actual through-the-air flying transfers
only =partial= responsibility for the handling of the aircraft.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Earth to Jose... HELLLOOO... those individuals get special training and
are licensed to perform aircraft surface movement operations within the
constraints of their job functions, and within limited areas.

Right. And they are not (necessarily) legal to fly an airplane solo
around the pattern. How much "special training" do you think it would
take Joe Mechanic before he can taxi a 150 safely from the tiedowns to
the service area, which is across the runway and down the taxiway a bit?

Not much.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.