question on student taxi practice

Careless and Reckless can always bite.



"Peter Duniho" wrote in
message ...
| "kontiki" wrote in message
| ...
| Boy, I'm so glad we have YOU to set us all straight
Peter.
|
| It seems that for now, you are the only person in need of
setting straight.
| No one else is claiming to know of hidden regulations
prohibiting a
| non-pilot from taxiing an airplane.
|
| There are several areas of the FARs where particular
activities/actions
| etc. are not specifically mentioned as "prohibited" but
neither are
| they specifically authorized or sanctioned.
|
| Such as?
|
| The FAA issues Advisory
| Circulars to clarify their positions on losts of these
sorts of subjects,
| often stating positions which to some may seem at odds
with the wording
| of the FARs.
|
| Are you claiming there's an AC that prohibits a non-pilot
from taxiing an
| airplane?
|
| In most cases they seem to come down on the side of more
| restrictive than what the casual reader may glean from
reading the FAR.
|
| You can be assured that in the event of an
accident/violation etc. that
| the FAA will come down as holding the CFI (or whatever
party supposedly
| authorized/sanctioned the questionable activity) as
being culpable.
|
| Assured by whom?
|
| I assume you have documentation to support your claim?
Where is it
| prohibited for a student (or anyone else without a pilot
certificate)
| without a solo endorsement to taxi an airplane?
|
| Safety and good judgement is one of the criteria used to
determine the
| cause of incident and thats what that is emphasized to
much to CFIs, as
| they are to instill this into their students.
|
| Safety and good judgment are both good things. So what?
There's lots of
| stuff that's legal but unsafe or in poor judgment.
|
| But I don't need to tell you this because you already
know it all.
|
| I appreciate your support.
|
| Pete
|
|

until you have reached a point of demonstrating ability
to safely master the control of the [insert whatever machine you want in here]
and have received a license/signoff/endorsement for solo operation you are a
potential accident...

.... and once you get the signoff, you are =not= a potential accident?

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Student pilot, 2 hours dual given, Piper Cub, goes out to
practice taxiing on a paved uncontrolled airport. Wind is
calm at 9:30 AM, at 9:45 the wind picks up to 20G35.....
you be the judge about student pilot skill.

Student pilot, 20 hours dual given, Piper Cub, goes out to
practice the pattern on a paved uncontrolled airport. Wind is
calm at 9:30 AM, at 9:45 the wind picks up to 20G35.....
you be the judge about student pilot skill.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:bTTZf.323$8q.203@dukeread08...
Careless and Reckless can always bite.

Not likely if there is no incident. It would be pretty hard to cite a
student pilot for 91.13 if all they've done is the exact same thing any
other pilot does all the time.

To continue the argument,

A 2 hour student will not likely have learned to judge a
forecast or the weather pattern, and might be so focused on
the taxiway that they don't see the dust in the distance as
the front approaches. The instructor, who should know
better [judgment-lack thereof] is not in the aircraft. The
student is not and has not been endorsed for solo.

A 20 hour student will likely have been endorsed for solo,
will likely have received training in weather, forecasts,
etc. The approaching gusts may be detected and the student
may position the aircraft in a safer location/position.

In any case, a student pilot should be supervised and a CFI
should be "in the loop" whenever the student is in the
airplane, local taxiing, or area practice and certainly on a
x-c. When a 2 hour student is authorized by a CFI to
practice taxiing and the CFI is too lazy to go along for the
ride, it is IMHO, time for the student to get a competent
instructor.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Jose" wrote in message
. com...
| Student pilot, 2 hours dual given, Piper Cub, goes out to
| practice taxiing on a paved uncontrolled airport. Wind
is
| calm at 9:30 AM, at 9:45 the wind picks up to
20G35.....
| you be the judge about student pilot skill.
|
| Student pilot, 20 hours dual given, Piper Cub, goes out to
| practice the pattern on a paved uncontrolled airport.
Wind is
| calm at 9:30 AM, at 9:45 the wind picks up to 20G35.....
| you be the judge about student pilot skill.
|
| Jose
| --
| Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

wrote in message
ups.com...
I'm still waiting for my first lesson to start, but know from my
instructor that I will be taxiing until I get that under control. I
will be flying from a rural uncontrolled airport. It'll be in my own
aircraft, a Luscombe 8A. It's apparently very important to have the
brakes and ground steering under control and since it's my aircraft,
not very expensive.

Linda

Well, you do have an advantage here. By starting out in a taildragger, you
won't have to unlearn the wrong reflexes (subconsciously relaxing after
touchdown) that you tend to pick up if you start out with a nosewheel


--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

Interesting. Come think of it, the FAA's legal authority of regulating
airspace over US came from the FAA authorization act from the Congress,
which is based on the interstate commerce clause in the U.S.
Constitution.

Therefore, it's entirely possible that FAA simply lacks legal authority
to regulate surface movement of an aircraft if there's no intention of
flight, and it does not interfere with any other flight activities
(i.e. movement area at a controlled airport).

Another trick question: the airport is below VFR with 1/4 mile
visibility. Can a non-instrument rated pilot taxi across the runway
from his hangar to the FBO at the other side of the airport? :-)



T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
Mark Hansen wrote:

Did your instructor give you a solo endorsement?

It's not required.

I'm not sure if the FAA recognizes ground-only operations as a separate
type of solo.

It's not solo, since he's not acting as PIC, solo or
otherwise. No license is required for taxiing without the
intent to commit aviation. It may not be covered by
insurance, however, which is probably why it's not commonly
done.

§ 61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and
authorizations.
(a) Pilot certificate. A person may not act as pilot in
command or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight
crewmember of a civil aircraft of U.S. registry, unless that
person-
(1) Has a valid pilot certificate ....

§ 1.1 "Pilot in command" means the pilot responsible for
the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time.

"Flight time" means the time from the moment the aircraft
first moves under its own power for the purpose of flight
until the moment it comes to rest at the next point of
landing. ("Block-to-block" time.)


--
Do not spin this aircraft. If the aircraft does enter a spin it will return to earth without further attention on the part of the aeronaut.

(first handbook issued with the Curtis-Wright flyer)

Don't ignore state and local airport/aviation laws, maybe
the feds don't have a specific rule, but often there are
local laws, states, counties, cities and airport boards can
all make laws/rules.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"M" wrote in message
oups.com...

Interesting. Come think of it, the FAA's legal authority of
regulating
airspace over US came from the FAA authorization act from
the Congress,
which is based on the interstate commerce clause in the U.S.
Constitution.

Therefore, it's entirely possible that FAA simply lacks
legal authority
to regulate surface movement of an aircraft if there's no
intention of
flight, and it does not interfere with any other flight
activities
(i.e. movement area at a controlled airport).

Another trick question: the airport is below VFR with 1/4
mile
visibility. Can a non-instrument rated pilot taxi across
the runway
from his hangar to the FBO at the other side of the airport?
:-)



T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
Mark Hansen wrote:

Did your instructor give you a solo endorsement?

It's not required.

I'm not sure if the FAA recognizes ground-only operations
as a separate
type of solo.

It's not solo, since he's not acting as PIC, solo or
otherwise. No license is required for taxiing without the
intent to commit aviation. It may not be covered by
insurance, however, which is probably why it's not
commonly
done.

§ 61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and
authorizations.
(a) Pilot certificate. A person may not act as pilot in
command or in any other capacity as a required pilot
flight
crewmember of a civil aircraft of U.S. registry, unless
that
person-
(1) Has a valid pilot certificate ....

§ 1.1 "Pilot in command" means the pilot responsible
for
the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight
time.

"Flight time" means the time from the moment the aircraft
first moves under its own power for the purpose of flight
until the moment it comes to rest at the next point of
landing. ("Block-to-block" time.)


--
Do not spin this aircraft. If the aircraft does enter a
spin it will return to earth without further attention on
the part of the aeronaut.

(first handbook issued with the Curtis-Wright flyer)

What if the 2 hour flight student also happens to be an A&P? Is it OK then?


"Jim Macklin" wrote in news:1sxZf.23
$8q.11@dukeread08:

You can't get a little pregnant, neither can you almost fly
an airplane. A non-yet soled student can have an accident
at 10 mph, even death is not unheard of at low speeds.
Rated pilots often have loss of directional control
accidents, just because a student can operate one or two
times safely does not make the operation safe.

A 12 year old is not ready for sex any more than a 2 hour
student pilot is ready to be alone in an airplane with the
engine running. That is my opinion and your are entitled to
your opinion if you are a certified flight instructor.

kontiki wrote in news:I0CZf.5201$kg.92
@news02.roc.ny:

Jose wrote:
... then how can non-pilots taxi solo safely and legally? They do all
the time.

Earth to Jose... HELLLOOO... those individuals get special training and
are licensed to perform aircraft surface movement operations within the
constraints of their job functions, and within limited areas. I doubt
they have a blanket authorization to taxi an airplane out to a runway.

We are NOT talking about THOSe sorts of indivisuals we are talking about
a student with just a few hours of training, supposedly asked to "go taxi
an airplane around" for the purposes of learning how to do it.

Sheesh...

Where in the original post was it indicated that the 2 hour student was not
an A&P or otherwise qualified to be taxiing around the airport?

We are talking about a two hours student pilot who was told to go taxi an
airplane for a half hour. No other criteria was specified by the original
posted. It was just assumed by all the "experts" who clearly have very
specific prejudices.

Sheesh...