interesting moment yesterday on final

Jose wrote:


You mean to say that a newly minted VFR pilot is supposed to study all
the approach plates at all the airports he might be flying past or need
to fly into?

Of course not, that is an assinine statement. An IFR pilot who reports
a navaid or especially an intersection inbound is just fouling the air.
It is irrelevant that it is on the sectional. Nobody with two brain
cells left whips out a sectional while in the pattern to locate the
idiot IFR pilot.

Recently, Larry Dighera posted:

On Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:37:36 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:


Personally, I would classify approach plates or low-level en route
charts as being within the broad category of "all available
information" with which an airman is required to familiarize himself
during preflight planning.

The root of the problem is the 'hobby' mentality of some airman. To
be an aviation dilettante invites disaster.


So Larry you are saying that you know not only the names but
locations as well of every IFR fix, intersection, ect... for every
airport that you have ever flown into VFR?


Don't be silly.

I'm saying, that regulations require an airman to have all available
information that may affect his planned flight. But you knew that,
right?

To be "information", it must be in a form understandable to the pilot.
Until a pilot at least completes IFR ground school, "information" will not
typically include approach plates or procedures. As approximately 40% of
pilots are not IFR rated, and probably half of those or more have yet to
take IFR ground school (plus all student and sport pilots) I guess you
think that quarter million pilots are "aviation dilettantes", and that if
they don't understand of your communications, it is not your problem?

Neil

No. I find that the regulations require familiarity with all
available information relevant to the flight. I would suppose that an
FAA inspector would also.

The location of all IFR stepdown fixes at possible diversionary airports
is marginally relevant to a VFR flight in CAVU conditions. So is the
location of all prominant buildings that other aircraft might use, and
so is a call ahead to local pilots to find out what "The Playground" is.
There is no limit to what information could be construed as
"relevant". Is it reckless for a VFR pilot to depart an airport CAVU
VFR without studying the SIDS and STARS? I would think not.

See, there is a gradation, not a sharp line. If you take the phrase
literally, "all" means all, "available" means available, and
"information" means information. You'd never take off.

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Mon, 4 Jun 2007 17:30:13 -0500, "Neil Gould"
wrote in
:

As approximately 40% of
pilots are not IFR rated, and probably half of those or more have yet to
take IFR ground school (plus all student and sport pilots) I guess you
think that quarter million pilots are "aviation dilettantes", and that if
they don't understand of your communications, it is not your problem?

It's not me; it's the FAA. Look at the third paragraph from the
bottom:


http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...A?OpenDocument
AC 90-42F Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports without Operating
Control Towers

9. SELF-ANNOUNCE POSITION AND/OR INTENTIONS.
a. General. ‘Self-announce” is a procedure whereby pilots
broadcast their position, intended flight activity or ground
operation on the designated CTAF. This procedure is used primarily
at airports which do not have a control tower or an FSS on the
airport.
...
11. EXAMPLES OF SELF-ANNOUNCE PHRASEOLOGIES. It should be noted
that aircraft operating to or from another nearby airport may be
making self-announce broadcasts on the same UNICOM or MULTICOM
frequency. To help identify one airport from another, the airport
name should be spoken at the beginning and end of each
self-announce transmission.

(1) Inbound:
STRAWN TRAFFIC, APACHE TWO TWO FIVE ZULU, (POSITION), (ALTITUDE),
(DESCENDING) OR ENTERING DOWNWIND/BASE/FINAL (AS APPROPRIATE)
RUNWAY ONE SEVEN FULL STOP,
TOUCH-AND-GO, STRAWN.

* STRAWN TRAFFIC APACHE TWO IWO FIVE ZULU CLEAR OF RUNWAY ONE
SEVEN STRAWN. *

(2) outbound:
$TRAWN TRAFFIC, QUEENAIRE SEVEN ONE FIVE FIVE BRAVO (LOCATION ON
AIRPORT) TAXIING TO RUNWAY TWO SIX STRAWN.

STRAWN TRAFFIC, QUEENAIRE SEVEN ONE FCVE FIVE BRAVO DEPARTING
RUNWAY TWO SIX, DEPARTING THE PATTERN TO THE (DIRECTION),
CLIMBING TO (ALTITUDE) STRAWN.

(3) Practice Instrument Approach:
STRAWN TRAFFIC, CESSNA TWO THREE FOUR THREE QUEBEC (NAME - FINAL
APPROACH FIX) INBOUND DESCENDING THROUGH (ALTITUDE) PRACTICE
(TYPE) APPROACH RUNWAY THREE FIVE STRAWN.

STRAWN TRAFFIC, CESSNA TWO ONE FOUR THREE QUEBEC PRACTICE (TYPE)
APPROACH COMPLETED OR TERMINATED RUNWAY THREE FIVE STRAWN.


12 SUMMARY OF RECOMMENDED COMMUNCATIONS PROCEDURES.
...

On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 18:50:53 -0400, Jose
wrote in :

No. I find that the regulations require familiarity with all
available information relevant to the flight. I would suppose that an
FAA inspector would also.

The location of all IFR stepdown fixes at possible diversionary airports
is marginally relevant to a VFR flight in CAVU conditions. So is the
location of all prominant buildings that other aircraft might use, and
so is a call ahead to local pilots to find out what "The Playground" is.
There is no limit to what information could be construed as
"relevant". Is it reckless for a VFR pilot to depart an airport CAVU
VFR without studying the SIDS and STARS? I would think not.

See, there is a gradation, not a sharp line. If you take the phrase
literally, "all" means all, "available" means available, and
"information" means information. You'd never take off.

Jose


Hey, I don't write the ACs and FARs. The AC below seems to indicate
that reporting the FAF is what the FAA want's to hear (3rd paragraph
from the bottom):



http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...A?OpenDocument
AC 90-42F Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports without Operating
Control Towers

9. SELF-ANNOUNCE POSITION AND/OR INTENTIONS.
a. General. ‘Self-announce” is a procedure whereby pilots
broadcast their position, intended flight activity or ground
operation on the designated CTAF. This procedure is used primarily
at airports which do not have a control tower or an FSS on the
airport.
...
11. EXAMPLES OF SELF-ANNOUNCE PHRASEOLOGIES. It should be noted
that aircraft operating to or from another nearby airport may be
making self-announce broadcasts on the same UNICOM or MULTICOM
frequency. To help identify one airport from another, the airport
name should be spoken at the beginning and end of each
self-announce transmission.

(1) Inbound:
STRAWN TRAFFIC, APACHE TWO TWO FIVE ZULU, (POSITION), (ALTITUDE),
(DESCENDING) OR ENTERING DOWNWIND/BASE/FINAL (AS APPROPRIATE)
RUNWAY ONE SEVEN FULL STOP,
TOUCH-AND-GO, STRAWN.

* STRAWN TRAFFIC APACHE TWO IWO FIVE ZULU CLEAR OF RUNWAY ONE
SEVEN STRAWN. *

(2) outbound:
$TRAWN TRAFFIC, QUEENAIRE SEVEN ONE FIVE FIVE BRAVO (LOCATION ON
AIRPORT) TAXIING TO RUNWAY TWO SIX STRAWN.

STRAWN TRAFFIC, QUEENAIRE SEVEN ONE FCVE FIVE BRAVO DEPARTING
RUNWAY TWO SIX, DEPARTING THE PATTERN TO THE (DIRECTION),
CLIMBING TO (ALTITUDE) STRAWN.

(3) Practice Instrument Approach:
STRAWN TRAFFIC, CESSNA TWO THREE FOUR THREE QUEBEC (NAME - FINAL
APPROACH FIX) INBOUND DESCENDING THROUGH (ALTITUDE) PRACTICE
(TYPE) APPROACH RUNWAY THREE FIVE STRAWN.

STRAWN TRAFFIC, CESSNA TWO ONE FOUR THREE QUEBEC PRACTICE (TYPE)
APPROACH COMPLETED OR TERMINATED RUNWAY THREE FIVE STRAWN.


12 SUMMARY OF RECOMMENDED COMMUNCATIONS PROCEDURES.
...

Recently, Larry Dighera posted:

On Mon, 4 Jun 2007 17:30:13 -0500, "Neil Gould"
wrote in
:

I guess you
think that quarter million pilots are "aviation dilettantes", and
that if they don't understand of your communications, it is not your
problem?

No. I think that if regulations are not followed, a PD has occurred.

Regulations *are* followed if all available _information_ is obtained.
And, let's not overlook that "all available information" pertinent to the
flight includes the fact that an IFR pilot flying into an active VFR
airport is also communicating to VFR pilots. To presume that only the
IFR-rated pilots need to know that pilot's location likely violates the
regulation, as well.

Neil

In article t,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Fly a proper rectangular pattern and not a 10 mile long final.


Why does the length of final matter?

Because it screws up everyone else in the pattern! I absolutely HATE it
when some dolt in a C152 insists on flying a B-52 pattern!

It's not me; it's the FAA.
EXAMPLES OF SELF-ANNOUNCE PHRASEOLOGIES [snipped]


Then the FAA has it's head in a very dark place. But this won't be the
first time.

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...

Nothing in either of those FARs indicates you can describe "final" as
being farther away from the airport than the end of "base leg".


Nothing in Part 91 indicates that "final" does not extend beyond the end
of "base leg". If "final" does not extend beyond the end of "base leg"
there does not seem to be any reason for FAR 91.113(g) to exist.


Sure it does. You can easily have two aircraft on final after their turn
from base leg.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...

Ref AC 90-66a, 7f. Avoid interrupting traffic in the pattern.


If an arriving IFR aircraft is still in cloud at the circling MDA the
choices are complete the approach straight-in or go somewhere else.


So what's you point?



Sure it does. Look again.


Look again at what?


I don't know, you snipped it.