Gasohol

Probably because the water test with a graduated tube was a lot easier,
cheaper and probably more accurate.


I wonder why he quit packaging it and selling the stuff.



Actually the test kit was very fast and easy. I was able to test a sample
before I filled my 5 gallon cans. when I tested the kit against known
gasohol it did indeed show positive with the color matching what a 10%
mixture would show.

Paul N1431A
KPLU

On May 30, 7:13 pm, "Blueskies" wrote:
Is it true that there is no longer any requirement to label gasoline contaminated with alcohol?

Good article hehttp://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Gasoline.html

I just did the add water to gas test on a couple of local gas sources and all contain alcohol, and none of the pumps
said anything about it. The feds just dropped the requirement to label the pumps and we all missed it?

Jay, where do you fill the grape from and how do you know there is no evil alcohol in it?

When MTBE was outlawed, the only financially feasable alternative was
alcohol. It is mantdated to be used in about 20 states, mostly on the
two coasts, but several other states have 5-10% alcohol mandates -
Missouri is the latest - their mandate begins Jan 08. Becides entire
states most of the nations major cities have mandates that require
alcohol to be added to increase the oxygen content of the gasoline to
reduce emmissions. Retail pump labeling is not a federal requirement,
it varies state by state. Some states require that retail pumps be
labled if the gasoline contains alcohol, other states do not have such
a requirement.

Even if you do not live in a state that requires the addition of
alcohol to auto gas, that is no guarantee that your gasoline does not
contain alcohol. Currently retailers can make an extra 5-7 cents per
gallon by adding 10% aclohol to their auto gas.

I recently did a presentation on alcohol in auto gas for an aviation
group. I took several samples of 87 octane auto gas and added 10 %
alcohol to some samples and to some of these mixture samples I added
20% water. You could not see the water in the sample. Alcohol
absorbs water - this is the danger of using it in aircrft. I then
lowered the temperature on the samples and the water froze and settled
out. This would have been a sure way to plug and line or injector.

"Pure" auto gas will generally be available at FBO's - then can order
it delivered without alcohol, but I would not use any auto fuel that I
bought at a retail outlet (Convenience Store) and hauled to the
airport with out doing an alcohol test.

On Jun 5, 12:22 pm, Cubdriver usenet AT danford DOT net wrote:
On Sun, 3 Jun 2007 12:37:37 -0400, "Morgans"

wrote:
But, it is _very_ difficult (it takes some expensive chemistry tricks) to
get all of the water distilled out of alcohol, in other words, stronger than
around 98% alcohol.

I think that's correct. When I was a student in England years ago, we
used to buy a liquor known as Polish White Spirits, which was 180
proof or 90 percent. The local wisdom (university students) held that
anything stronger would promptly dilute itself back to 180 proof from
water in the air (this was England, remember, very humid).

Google tells me that one can buy 190 proof (95 percent) "Everclear"
grain alcochol in British stores today.

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

(Proof = the concentration of alcohol at which gunpowder soaked with
it will still explode, or rather flash up. It was therefore called
"proof", which later became 100 proof. It just happened to be 50
percent alcohol, so 200 proof is 100 percent.

(More student wisdom.)

(Wiki tells me that 100 proof is actually 49.28 percent alcohol BY
WEIGHT. By volume, it's less, so the student wisdom is a bit shaky.)

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
forthcoming from HarperCollinswww.flyingtigersbook.com


The only real difference between the 190 proof Everclear you refer to
and the alcohol that is added to auto gas is that the alcohol to be
added to auto fuel is "denatured". All this means is that it has been
poisioned so that it is unfit for human consumption. This is usually
done with natural gasoline and the regulations allow them to vary the
amount they add to 3-5%.

As it is perhaps well known, gentian violet dye is chemically
methylrosaniline chloride and has been used as both a
bacteriological and histological stain ...

http://dermatology.about.com/library...gentviolet.htm

Definition: Gentian Violet is a purple dye that is used to treat
vaginal yeast infections and thrush. The dye is "painted" on the
infection and kills the fungus. It can stain clothing.

Want to emphesize that ALL gasoline has some water in it. It leaves
the refinery with some non-zero amount. It's stored in floating roof
tanks [1] that will let some in. It's in a truck in the rain... it's
there.

The question is getting rid of same.

We all know how -- let it sit quietly and it shall settle out. Then
open the bottom drain and watch. That might be under your wing, or
on a tank or inbetween...



[1] Gas does not go kabboom; gas vapor does. So it's stored not in
tanks as much as 4 million gallon cylinders with closed bottoms.

On top of the gas there's a big heavy floating roof that has a gasket
all the way around the edge. It floats directly atop the gas; ergo
no vapor space.

Then there's a sliding ladder deal so the pipeline operator can
climb up over the cylinder lip and back down onto the roof.

BUT, with the tank half full; there's a 2 million gallon trap atop
the roof to collect rainwater and snow; some of which leaks past
that gasket. Most is SUPPOSED to go through an articulated downspout
gadget INSIDE the tank and out the side at the bottom; but that's
only when the temperature is well above freezing...and they leak
a little too...

This was obvious to many pilots & few ground-dwellers, but now many
of the tanks also have a cap on top to keep some of the rain and
snow out. I was looking for a GoogleMap photo and all the ones I
worked on are now capped.



--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

Given the issue with alcohol, and the fact it is injected at the
last stage - truck loading -- why aren't the STA owners such as EAA
running campaigns to set up procedures for FBO's to procure untainted
autogas?

I can see the average truck loading terminal saying "we can't do that"
until they get a memo saying that they can...



--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

David Lesher wrote:


This was obvious to many pilots & few ground-dwellers, but now many
of the tanks also have a cap on top to keep some of the rain and
snow out. I was looking for a GoogleMap photo and all the ones I
worked on are now capped.

Here's some uncaped ones.

http://tinyurl.com/ypupkd

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net writes:

David Lesher wrote:


This was obvious to many pilots & few ground-dwellers, but now many
of the tanks also have a cap on top to keep some of the rain and
snow out. I was looking for a GoogleMap photo and all the ones I
worked on are now capped.

Here's some uncaped ones.

http://tinyurl.com/ypupkd


and one photo I just found:

https://www.piersystem.com/posted/42...017.125127.JPG


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On Tue, 5 Jun 2007, Morgans wrote:

I did think I understood that the problem with gasohol for airplanes was
incompatibility with some rubber parts of the fuel system.

That's what I've always heard too, but I've never been able to get anyone
to back it up with info about SPECIFIC parts that are in danger. In
particular, I'd really like to know what SPECIFIC parts I have to change
in my IO-360-A1A's fuel system so I don't have to worry about alcohol.
(It's in an experimental, so legality isn't an issue.) At the same time,
I see all manner of decades-old cars & trucks running for many years on
gas that's part alcohol, with all original fuel system parts, with no ill
effects whatsoever. So I'm pretty close to writing off the whole ethanol
fuel system damage thing as an old wives' tale, but not yet willing to bet
the farm on it.

-Dan

"Dan Youngquist" wrote

That's what I've always heard too, but I've never been able to get anyone
to back it up with info about SPECIFIC parts that are in danger. In
particular, I'd really like to know what SPECIFIC parts I have to change
in my IO-360-A1A's fuel system so I don't have to worry about alcohol.
(It's in an experimental, so legality isn't an issue.)

Well, let's think about it.

I'm not an A&P, and have never torn an airplane carb or injector or fuel
pump, or ..... apart. Nevertheless, we can take some very educated guess,
and hopefully, some others with specific knowledge can jump in with some
specifics of the systems.

Let's look at the fuel system, from tank, all of the way until it goes
"bang." (the gas in the fuel system, that is!)

Fuel tank. Not a bladder, in an experimental, I would guess. Is it sloshed
sealed? Some sloshes will definitely NOT hold up to alcohol. Some will.
Is it sealed with other seam sealers? Again, some will hold up to alcohol,
and some will not. What did you use, if you did use them?

How about the seals or O-rings from the tank to fuel line fitting? What did
you use there? My suggestion for this, and most all of the other
replaceable parts, is to get an exact replacement and soak it in some E- 85.
If that does not cause the part to do strange things, 10% gasohol should not
cause a problem.

Fuel line, and flexible transitions, if used? Again, test what you used, or
find the manufacturer's recommendations, based on tests.

Fuel Valve. Lots of O-rings, there. Will they test alright?

Oh, back up. Fuel level indication sender, or sight glass and connections.
Test them.

Fuel pump, both electric auxiliary, and engine driven fuel pump. Use
manufacturer's recommendations, as there are so many variables, possibly
more in an electric. The engine driven pump recommendations will probably
not allow gasohol, but you, or someone who knows how could tear one down,
and soak test all of the non metal parts.

Gasolater and other filters. Test, to verify they will hold up.

Injector controls, spiders, and O-rings in all of these should be verified.
All of the non metal parts if it is a carburetor, for some people.

Then the injectors themselves will need a manufacturer's recommendation, or
a test.

Does that cover it all? What did I miss?

How about everyone, and you, Dan? Do you think this kind of step by step
investigation would uncover all of the weak parts, and prove them OK, or
vulerenable?

Is it all worth it? That would be a question you would have to answer.

Perhaps another valid approach would be to contact groups that have flown
gasohol, or pure ethanol airplanes. The EAA has done it; are there other
groups that have? Would they be willing to share what they have learned?

I await everyone's opinions. I agree with the premise that I think Dan has;
that it should be possible, and practical to develop a gasohol safe
airplane. "Some will no doubt shout, you will crash and burn!"

This could be an interesting discussion.
--
Jim in NC