interesting moment yesterday on final

Actually, you're just a poor student.

.... and you are not a teacher. You are a professor.

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Recently, Steven P. McNicoll posted:

"Neil Gould" wrote in message
t...

My question to YOU was when the ability to understand IAPs was added
to the Private Knowledge or Practical tests? The fact is that it is
NOT a part of the requirements for a Private certificate. The direct
route to realizing that fact is to simply read the published
requirements. They are not secret documents. So, your references to
irrelevant regs (twice, no less) is clearly an indication that you
are quite confused about the requirements and expected abilities of
private pilots.


That was NOT your question to me. I stated, "Every newly minted VFR
pilot should be able to identify the fixes in the plan view of an
IAP. Your question in response was, "Oh? When was this added to the
Private Knowledge Test or Practical?" The fact that you don't know
what you asked is a clear indication that it is you that is confused.

My question to you had to do with the basis for your assumption.
Specifically, what in the Practical or Knowledge Tests -- the ONLY
requirements for becoming "a newly minted VFR pilot" -- assures that your
assumption is valid. Since there is no requirement that a "...newly minted
VFR pilot..." has even SEEN an IAP, your assumption is not reasonable.

Neil

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
So which practice should be followed? The one in AC 90-66A which
provides reliable information to none or the one in AC 90-42F which
provides reliable information to some?

I've found a very helpful AOPA document that provides useful guidance on
this subject (and provides me an answer to your questions):

"Safety Advisor
Operations & Proficiency No. 3
Operations at Nontowered Airports":

http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa08.pdf

It states:

"Pilots practicing instrument approaches at nontowered airports on a
VFR day should announce their position in both IFR and VFR terms,

"Frederick traffic, Seminole Three-Six Lima, RICKE inbound, four-mile
final, Runway Two-Three, Frederick."

VFR pilots will benefit from a little education about instrument
operations at a nontowered airport. Learn if the airport has IFR
approaches and, if so, to which runways by referencing the A/FD. Have
an instrumentrated pilot or instructor describe the approach
procedures and explain the phraseology IFR pilots use to announce
their positions and intentions.
....
If you know where the missed approach holding fixes are and how
instrument traffic navigates to those fixes, you’ll know where IFR
pilots are headed when they announce on the CTAF they are executing a
practice missed approach."

There is more relevant material (including advice on when a straight-in
approach is not recommended) but the document's recommendations appear to
be (to me at least) better than the too-brief recommendations in the two
FAA ACs referenced above. So my answer to your questions would be
"neither," and would follow the practice recommended by the AOPA document.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...

People that insist on straight in approaches at uncontrolled fields are
just as bad if not worse. Not following FAA recommend procedures is
proabably worse.


Like the FAA recommended procedure to use the FAF to identify one's
position in a self-announce broadcast specified in Advisory Circular
90-42F "Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without Operating Control
Towers" when executing an IAP? Is that the kind of FAA recommended
procedure you're referring to?

Not following the right-of-way rules in FAR 91.113 is worse.


Asked and answered Steven, your just trolling because you don't like the
answer.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...

So now you are going to try to convince us that final doesn't follow base
leg. Do you have a reference?


No, I've been explaining that final extends beyond the base leg. It's
clear now that that fact is beyond your ability to understand.


Asked and answered Steven, your just trolling because you don't like the
answer.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...

Just as it's stated. If two aircraft turn final from base leg, 91.113g is
still very useful.


Of course. FAR 91.113(g) states aircraft on final have the right-of-way.
If two aircraft turn final from base leg 91.113(g) gives the right-of-way
to the aircraft on final. How could I have ever missed that.


Asked and answered Steven, your just trolling because you don't like the
answer.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...

Since AC 90-66A doesn't speak to that particular point, and I'm not aware
of anything that does, maybe you should ask the FAA?


I was answering your question. Do you see the point now?




I have seen your point ever since you began deigning 90-66.
Asked and answered Steven, your just trolling because you don't like the
answer.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...

Where?


In AC 90-42F Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without Operating
Control Towers, which I posted three weeks ago in this thread.


11. EXAMPLES OF SELF-ANNOUNCE PHRASEOLOGIES. It should be noted that
aircraft operating to or from another nearby airport may be making
self-announce broadcasts on the same UNICOM or MULTICOM frequency. To help
identify one airport from another, the airport name should be spoken at
the
beginning and end of each self-announce transmission.

(3) Practice Instrument Approach:

STRAWN TRAFFIC, CESSNA TWO ONE FOUR THREE QUEBEC
(NAME - FINAL APPROACH FIX) INBOUND DESCENDING
THROUGH (ALTITUDE) PRACTICE (TYPE) APPROACH RUNWAY
THREE FIVE STRAWN.

STRAWN TRAFFIC, CESSNA TWO ONE FOUR THREE QUEBEC
PRACTICE (TYPE) APPROACH COMPLETED OR TERMINATED
RUNWAY THREE FIVE STRAWN.


Asked and answered Steven, your just trolling because you don't like the
answer.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:03:15 -0000, Jim Logajan
wrote in :

Your citation of AC90-66A [1] appears to
clearly indicate that the FAA prefers that IFR pilots report their
positions by transmitting their distance from uncontrolled airports when
landing at same:

How do you resolve that conclusion with the third paragraph from the
end below:


It seems clear to me that most VFR pilots, as well as many IFR pilots flying
VFR in unfamiluar areas, an not going to be aware of all IFR reporting
points. Therefore, if someone wants to convey their position to all pilots
on CTAF, IFR reporting points will never be completely reliable. It also
seems the FAA understands this, or they wouldn't have clearly mentioned it
in the AC.

So I would think we could assume the FAA was thinking of an IFR situation
when the example in 90-42 was written. I don't see how any reasonable person
could report himself in reference to an IFR reporting point, in VFR
conditions, and expect all others to understand. Right or wrong, someone
doing so doesn't seem to be making his reporting position clear.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Jim Logajan" wrote in message
.. .

I believe the "definition" in that circular is implicit in the labeling
of
the airport operation diagrams in appendix 1. The line out from infinite
to the point where it joins the base leg is labelled "straight-in
approach"
and the narrative for point (3) labels the line from the base leg to the
runway as final.


The "final" label in that diagram is on the side of the base leg away from
the airport, indicating that final extends past the base leg. That is
consistent with the definition of final found in the Pilot/Controller
Glossary

The narrative for point 3 is, "Complete turn to final at least l/4 mile
from the runway." That does not even approach suggesting that final does
not extend beyond the base leg.

Asked and answered Steven, your just trolling because you don't like the
answer.