Las Vegas NV Cortez 1 VFR Arrival/Class B Airspace

On Dec 22, 11:50*am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

Let's make a deal, you show me the requirement, then I'll show you the
exceptions to it.

Your very own reference shows the requirement I must be cleared to
enter the area (class B).

An arrival procedure does not necessarily be all inclusive in Class
B.

wrote:
On Dec 22, 10:13?am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having
jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.

Not enough as I saw this.

Clearance on an arrival procedure does not clear you in Bravo. An
arrival procedure can be outside bravo. That area OUTSIDE bravo is
what you are cleared for, NOT cleared to enter Bravo.

The Cortez route -REQUIRES- you to fly through class B.

If you have been cleared to fly the Cortez route, you -MUST- fly
through class B.

From the Cortez route:

"Cross Lava Butte at and maintain 3500' MSL until crossing the
Spaghetti Bowl or advised by ATC."

The floor of the class B between Lava Butte and the Spaghetti Bowl is
at the surface.

Look at the Las Vegas TAC.


--
Jim Pennino

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On Dec 22, 12:05*pm, wrote:

The floor of the class B between Lava Butte and the Spaghetti Bowl is
at the surface.

Look at the Las Vegas TAC.

I don't have the TAC readily available, so I will go at your word Jim,
but before even getting to the VFR arrival procedures, you still have
to get cleared into Bravo.

The arrival procedures are only directions to take, arrival procedures
are not airspace rules. Two very distinct issues (and clearances).

You can't be cleared into Bravo without hearing those magic words.
Implied clearance (and that is what you are doing when not
specifically saying cleared into bravo causes confusion as just in
this thread and like I said, I wouldn't put my ticket on Steven's
position.

The phraseology is very clear that I posted from Larry's reference.
There is nothing in the phraseology (I KNOW it's not regulatory) that
shows that a clearance to an arrival procedure is a clearance into ANY
airpsace.

Allen

wrote in message
...
On Dec 22, 11:35 am, Larry Dighera wrote:

He already has. If you look at the sentence Mr. McNicoll quoted out
of FAAO 7110.65, you'll notice that it doesn't mention "cleared into
Bravo."

And since when is an arrival procedure the same **area** as Bravo?


Huh?



So, what you are saying if a person is on flight following landing
KLAS (after all Ron was VFR), that it's ok to hear contact tower
WITHOUT hearing the magic words "cleared to enter bravo"?


No, that's not what anyone is saying.



I don't think so. What's the difference between that and arrival
procedure.
None.


It's like the difference between a sheep and a Buick.



Arrival procedure is not the same as Bravo airspace. An arrival
procedure does not trump airspace rules, and Bravo requires a
clearance to enter it, implied or not via the approval would not show
up on the tapes those magic words "cleared into Bravo".


Please explain why a clearance for a procedure that penetrates Class B
airspace is not a clearance to enter Class B airspace.



Please provide a citation from FAAO 7110.65 (the Aeronautical
Information Manual is not regulatory; it is merely a summary of
regulations) that contains "cleared into Bravo." Here's a link for
you:




Let me go this route, I will not bet my ticket on Steven's advise.


You have a ticket?!



Unless I am IFR, I will expect to hear cleared into Bravo just as the
phraseology suggest above, and since an arrival procedure is not the
same as Bravo airspace, I don't think Steven is right. Rules clearly
state, you must be cleared into the airspace (area).


Why do you expect to hear "cleared into Bravo" when VFR but not when IFR?

On Dec 22, 1:35*pm, wrote:

You have to be cleared for the Cortez route before you start on the
Cortez route.

That's fine and dandy, and again, I wouldn't bet my ticket on it. I
will state this and end it here, you are cleared on the route, but
just like IFR, that clearance is for that to your next fix, and not
beyond. (I can only related to IFR as a similarity, not that it's an
actual clearance)

If the arrival route is outside Bravo, I will take it I am cleared on
that route, and I will expect "further clearance" (VFR for what it's
worth) into Bravo. If the arrival route is inside Bravo, I will
expect to hear "cleared into bravo via Cortez1.

Again, I don't have the TAC, and am not arguing over the actual
procedures, just that an arrival procedure isn't a clearance into
airspace, just as receiving vectors under ATC control isn't a
clearance to enter Bravo on flight following.

Allen

wrote in message
...
On Dec 22, 11:50 am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

Let's make a deal, you show me the requirement, then I'll show you the
exceptions to it.


Your very own reference shows the requirement I must be cleared to
enter the area (class B).


Yes, but you said there's a requirement to hear the words "cleared into
Bravo." You show me that requirement and I'll show you all of the
exceptions to it. Good luck with your search.



An arrival procedure does not necessarily be all inclusive in Class B.


What does that mean?

wrote in message
...

I don't have the TAC readily available, so I will go at your word Jim,
but before even getting to the VFR arrival procedures, you still have
to get cleared into Bravo.


If you're cleared for the VFR arrival procedure you're cleared into Class B
airspace. An arrival procedure that didn't penetrate Class B airspace would
not require a clearance and wouldn't be particularly useful.

The Cortez 1 arrival is on the Las Vegas TAC, you can see it at
http://skyvector.com



The arrival procedures are only directions to take, arrival procedures
are not airspace rules. Two very distinct issues (and clearances).


The Las Vegas TAC says this about the Cortez 1 arrival:

VFR transition route. ATC clearance required. See Cortez graphic on side
panel.

The statement below is just under the graphic on the side panel:

CORTEZ 1 ARRIVAL: After receiving clearance, proceed from the Wash Marina
direct to Lava Butte, thence direct the El Cortez Hotel, direct the
Spaghetti Bowl or advised by ATC. Contact North Las Vegas Tower passing the
El Cortez Hotel on 125.7.


You insist that this clearance does not meet the requirements of FAR
91.131(a)(1). Why do you believe that?



You can't be cleared into Bravo without hearing those magic words.


Prove it.



Implied clearance (and that is what you are doing when not
specifically saying cleared into bravo causes confusion as just in
this thread and like I said, I wouldn't put my ticket on Steven's
position.


Nonsense. Most operations in Class B airspace are IFR, clearances to enter
Class B airspace while IFR are always implicit and nobody questions them.



The phraseology is very clear that I posted from Larry's reference.
There is nothing in the phraseology (I KNOW it's not regulatory) that
shows that a clearance to an arrival procedure is a clearance into ANY
airpsace.


Then you must believe you must also hear the "magic words" when operating
IFR.

wrote in message
...
On Dec 22, 1:35 pm, wrote:

That's fine and dandy, and again, I wouldn't bet my ticket on it. I
will state this and end it here, you are cleared on the route, but
just like IFR, that clearance is for that to your next fix, and not
beyond. (I can only related to IFR as a similarity, not that it's an
actual clearance)


Right, ending it here is far easier than providing some support for your
assertions.



If the arrival route is outside Bravo, I will take it I am cleared on
that route, and I will expect "further clearance" (VFR for what it's
worth) into Bravo. If the arrival route is inside Bravo, I will
expect to hear "cleared into bravo via Cortez1.

Again, I don't have the TAC, and am not arguing over the actual
procedures, just that an arrival procedure isn't a clearance into
airspace, just as receiving vectors under ATC control isn't a
clearance to enter Bravo on flight following.


You're not even trying to understand this.

On Dec 22, 2:25*pm, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

Then you must believe you must also hear the "magic words" when operating
IFR.

Nope. I am cleared from point A to point B unless otherwise advised
by ATC when picking up my clearance. That don't exist under VFR.

That's the beauty of IFR, all airspace is transparent.

Allen

wrote:
On Dec 22, 1:35?pm, wrote:

You have to be cleared for the Cortez route before you start on the
Cortez route.

That's fine and dandy, and again, I wouldn't bet my ticket on it. I
will state this and end it here, you are cleared on the route, but
just like IFR, that clearance is for that to your next fix, and not
beyond. (I can only related to IFR as a similarity, not that it's an
actual clearance)

The "next fix", if you want to call it that, is the VGT tower, at
which point Las Vegas approach is done with you.

If the arrival route is outside Bravo, I will take it I am cleared on
that route, and I will expect "further clearance" (VFR for what it's
worth) into Bravo. If the arrival route is inside Bravo, I will
expect to hear "cleared into bravo via Cortez1.

You will probably be waiting a while...

Again, I don't have the TAC, and am not arguing over the actual
procedures, just that an arrival procedure isn't a clearance into
airspace, just as receiving vectors under ATC control isn't a
clearance to enter Bravo on flight following.

The Cortez route isn't an "arrival procedure", it is a "VFR transition
route".

The instructions for a "VFR transition route" say explicitly to remain
outside class B airspace until authorization is received.

The authorization that is being referred to is the authorization to
use the "VFR transition route".

--
Jim Pennino

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