About Stall Psychology and Pilots

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in news:J6mdnf-
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Private" wrote in :

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
It's interesting to note that although stall recovery should be
thought of as something done with a minimum loss of altitude, the
emphasis on recovery should always be placed on the regaining of
angle of attack as PRIME to recovery.
Agreed, I have always thought of myself as flying a wing to which
is attached a fuselage rather than the reverse.


Xactly right IMO. All you need is a wing to fly, after all.

Bertie

As you already know and I can confirm emphatically , as soon as you
start flying high performance jets, it's all about wing management.


Actualy, in the turkeys we fly it's all about nailing your pitch to
what the computer wants, but you're right, they're all about the
wing. I've always understood that to be the case, but I learned to
fly in gliders, so it was more about pefromance and less about
procedure like it is in a lot of lightplane instruction.


Bertie



In the T38 for example, the approach is flown at an optimum alpha on
the indexer or at a specific airspeed plus fuel. Either way, the
object is to keep the wing within specific limits aoa wise. The bird
will develop a sink rate that can't be recovered otherwise.
I've always wondered why you guys in the big jets don't use alpha more
on the approach. I'm guessing it's because of the complicated fuel
loads possible which gives you such a wide range of approach speeds to
bug to keep the pitch angle right at touchdown.
I know that Boeing for one is doing some research into providing
better aoa data to you on the ADI for approaches but haven't heard
much about how this outreach is being accepted by the carriers.


Well, the military guys have it. I was in a 141 sim once and that had
it. We bug a diffeent approach speed for each weight. The takeoff speeds
provide for a variety of AoAs depending on whether we want to climb, get
off a short runway or get over some obstacles. We can select a range of
V2s based on a runway analysis to get the most weight possible off the
ground on a given takeoff. That, of course, gives us different AoAs
depending on whether we're looking for best angle or best rate. We don't
call it any of that, but it's exaclty what we do. on approach we select
Vso 1.3 based on the weight. So we do use a constant alpha. It's
important to avoid float, and to touch down at the right attitude so we
don't end up bouncing off the nosewheel or the tail as well. I do it in
light planes as well, and hopefully most guys do have nominal approach
speeds for different weights.. I just knock off a few knots if I'm
light, basically.


Bertie

Bertie

On Feb 16, 4:41 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote :



On Feb 15, 6:37 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in
news:ebb74b75-9910-4c50-ae86-
:

On Feb 15, 3:56 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Man there are a lot of posts on this topic. Too much newsgrouping,
people need to do more flying

When my airplane is finished!

Bertie

Watchu building?

A Hatz, but it's a Citabria being restored I'm waiting to fly.

Bertie

Cool. Thanks. My son took a Young Eagle flight last year in a
Citabria...after flying FsX. He loved it.

On Feb 16, 4:44 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote :

On Feb 15, 9:54 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote
innews:48ff8b66-f84b-4281-998b-158e7acf78dd@

28g2000hsw.googlegroups.co



m:

On Feb 15, 9:06 pm, wrote:
The ultimate answer to getting the quality level up in the GA
pilot community will in my opinion require a whole new look at
the way flight instruction is conducted.
...

Dudley Henriques

Obliquely related to the topic of comfort in the left hand curve of
the flight envelope, some low speed F22 aerobatics:

http://www.airventure.org/2008/news/080214_raptors.html

What a ride that aircraft provides.

Well, that thing looks after alpha for you.

Bertie

OH that's just great. Now I have to ask WTF 'alpha' is. ****.
Thanks. ;-)

Sew watt is it?

Oh sorry, slang for Angle of Attack, basically.

Bertie

Ahhh... a 'docile' well centered ac. Similar to a non-elliptical
airfoil parachute. (Like mine, being old, slow and ready to live till
the end of the week).

Richard.

wrote in
:

On Feb 16, 4:41 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote
innews:5df6e0b3-35d5-490f-8b31-1a1fbe48eeed@
62g2000hsn.googlegroups.co
m:



On Feb 15, 6:37 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in
news:ebb74b75-9910-4c50-ae86-
:

On Feb 15, 3:56 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Man there are a lot of posts on this topic. Too much
newsgrouping, people need to do more flying

When my airplane is finished!

Bertie

Watchu building?

A Hatz, but it's a Citabria being restored I'm waiting to fly.

Bertie

Cool. Thanks. My son took a Young Eagle flight last year in a
Citabria...after flying FsX. He loved it.


It's an honest old airplane. It's been around in one form or another
since WW2.

Bertie

wrote in
:

On Feb 16, 4:44 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote
innews:5268d2a1-66db-4dd9-8616-6defa1a7cab2
@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.c
om:

On Feb 15, 9:54 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote
innews:48ff8b66-f84b-4281-998b-158e7acf78dd@

28g2000hsw.googlegroups.co



m:

On Feb 15, 9:06 pm, wrote:
The ultimate answer to getting the quality level up in the GA
pilot community will in my opinion require a whole new look
at the way flight instruction is conducted.
...

Dudley Henriques

Obliquely related to the topic of comfort in the left hand curve
of the flight envelope, some low speed F22 aerobatics:

http://www.airventure.org/2008/news/080214_raptors.html

What a ride that aircraft provides.

Well, that thing looks after alpha for you.

Bertie

OH that's just great. Now I have to ask WTF 'alpha' is. ****.
Thanks. ;-)

Sew watt is it?

Oh sorry, slang for Angle of Attack, basically.

Bertie

Ahhh... a 'docile' well centered ac. Similar to a non-elliptical
airfoil parachute. (Like mine, being old, slow and ready to live till
the end of the week).

??You've lost me, now. I taqke it you've lapsed into meatbomb speak?


Bertie

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:44:08 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

wrote in
:

On Feb 15, 9:54 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote
innews:48ff8b66-f84b-4281-998b-158e7acf78dd@
28g2000hsw.googlegroups.co
m:



On Feb 15, 9:06 pm, wrote:
The ultimate answer to getting the quality level up in the GA
pilot community will in my opinion require a whole new look at
the way flight instruction is conducted.
...

Dudley Henriques

Obliquely related to the topic of comfort in the left hand curve of
the flight envelope, some low speed F22 aerobatics:

http://www.airventure.org/2008/news/080214_raptors.html

What a ride that aircraft provides.

Well, that thing looks after alpha for you.

Bertie

OH that's just great. Now I have to ask WTF 'alpha' is. ****.
Thanks. ;-)

Sew watt is it?


Oh sorry, slang for Angle of Attack, basically.



Bertie
************************************************** *******************

Bertie

Just tell him that when thrust exceds gross weight, Alpha no longer
is a problem.

Big John

Big John wrote in
:

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:44:08 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

wrote in
news:5268d2a1-66db-4dd9-8616-6defa1a7cab2
@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:

On Feb 15, 9:54 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote
innews:48ff8b66-f84b-4281-998b-158e7acf78dd@
28g2000hsw.googlegroups.co
m:



On Feb 15, 9:06 pm, wrote:
The ultimate answer to getting the quality level up in the GA
pilot community will in my opinion require a whole new look at
the way flight instruction is conducted.
...

Dudley Henriques

Obliquely related to the topic of comfort in the left hand curve
of
the flight envelope, some low speed F22 aerobatics:

http://www.airventure.org/2008/news/080214_raptors.html

What a ride that aircraft provides.

Well, that thing looks after alpha for you.

Bertie

OH that's just great. Now I have to ask WTF 'alpha' is. ****.
Thanks. ;-)

Sew watt is it?


Oh sorry, slang for Angle of Attack, basically.



Bertie
************************************************** *******************

Bertie

Just tell him that when thrust exceds gross weight, Alpha no longer
is a problem.


So I've heard, but never got the chance to try it! Well, with an RC
model, maybe...But not strapped to one!

Bertie

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Feb 16, 2:08 pm, "Private" wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in

oups.com...







As much as I like the "dud" his post is the
most completely idiotic thing I had to read.
On Feb 16, 12:10 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
It's interesting to note that although stall recovery should be
thought of as something done with a minimum loss of altitude, the
emphasis on recovery should always be placed on the regaining of
angle of attack as PRIME to recovery.
NUTZ. You need airspeed, it's called kinetic
energy that is needed to suck off, using the
wings (you know, those little things that
protude out the side of airplanes).
I am one instructor who strongly believes that instructors should
consider altering their approach to teaching stall to focus more
strongly on recovering angle of attack than recovering in minimum
altitude.
See KIAS, Dud, you'd last 2 minutes in the RHS
of my plane, after that you'd be lickin' pavement,
from my shoe on your ass.
Stalls entered at low altitude have many times resulted in
secondary stall entry or a mushed recovery followed by ground
impact by pilots who COULD have lowered the nose and held it down
there a bit longer than they did, using the air under them to
better advantage and giving themselves the needed time to regain
angle of attack and smooth airflow as they attempted a recovery.
But because they had been taught that ALTITUDE rather than AOA was
the killer, they recovered trying to save altitude, when in
reality what was needed was to USE THE AVAILABLE ALTITUDE
CORRECTLY....and save the airplane. Toward this goal, I strongly
encourage all CFI's to reference AOA in stall recovery. This
doesn't mean INSTEAD of altitude, but it does mean that to recover
the airplane, you absolutely HAVE to restore AOA, and at low
altitude that might very well mean using available altitude to the
last foot of air to do that.
I have always taught stall recovery both with and without power.
The FAA requires power. I want the student to see the difference
and at the same time be able to stress that it's the ANGLE OF
ATTACK that saves your butt. The strong lesson here is that you
USE altitude......you don't try to minimize it at the expense of
angle of attack.
Dud, you're clueless, you have not a clue about KIAS,
spiral dives or g-force recovery's. In short I see NO
evidence you have even been in an airplane with your
focus on AoA.
I can get a good AoA at 10 KIAS or 200 KIAS,
what are going to do?
Regards
Ken
Ken,
With respect, I think you must have missed my reply in another
thread. I am enclosing it here for your convenience and
consideration.

"Private" wrote in message

...

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message

om...
I was out paying taxes, to get some coin for the
piggy bank, I shook it 3 times and still didn't hear
any rattling, that's simple accounting to tell me
when I'm broke, works every time!
Ken
Some here would suggest that you apply the same strategy to your
head before
posting.
I am somewhat embarrassed to be entering this thread, but I just
can't resist swinging at a soft pitch like that.
Happy landings,
To elaborate, my suggestion was that before posting you should give
your head a shake to determine if there is anything inside and to
consider whether you really wished to make the fact public.
Happy landings,

If I were you, I'd ****-off and read.
You're swinging at screw-balls...
Me and the "dud" ****ed your mush mind.
Get a ****in life, crack a book.

Best Regards
Ken
xxxx

Just for the record, and on the off chance that there might just be
one person on Usenet who needs to be informed of this, please be
advised that regardless of what this idiot says and when he uses my
name in his posts; I am in NO way even remotely involved with this
character in any way whatsoever.



It should be obvious that Ken always puts the "S" between "Ken" and
"Tucker" to emphasize to everyone that he is a total ****HEAD!

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in news:J6mdnf-
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Private" wrote in :

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
It's interesting to note that although stall recovery should be
thought of as something done with a minimum loss of altitude, the
emphasis on recovery should always be placed on the regaining of
angle of attack as PRIME to recovery.
Agreed, I have always thought of myself as flying a wing to which
is attached a fuselage rather than the reverse.


Xactly right IMO. All you need is a wing to fly, after all.

Bertie

As you already know and I can confirm emphatically , as soon as you
start flying high performance jets, it's all about wing management.

Actualy, in the turkeys we fly it's all about nailing your pitch to
what the computer wants, but you're right, they're all about the
wing. I've always understood that to be the case, but I learned to
fly in gliders, so it was more about pefromance and less about
procedure like it is in a lot of lightplane instruction.


Bertie
In the T38 for example, the approach is flown at an optimum alpha on
the indexer or at a specific airspeed plus fuel. Either way, the
object is to keep the wing within specific limits aoa wise. The bird
will develop a sink rate that can't be recovered otherwise.
I've always wondered why you guys in the big jets don't use alpha more
on the approach. I'm guessing it's because of the complicated fuel
loads possible which gives you such a wide range of approach speeds to
bug to keep the pitch angle right at touchdown.
I know that Boeing for one is doing some research into providing
better aoa data to you on the ADI for approaches but haven't heard
much about how this outreach is being accepted by the carriers.


Well, the military guys have it. I was in a 141 sim once and that had
it. We bug a diffeent approach speed for each weight. The takeoff speeds
provide for a variety of AoAs depending on whether we want to climb, get
off a short runway or get over some obstacles. We can select a range of
V2s based on a runway analysis to get the most weight possible off the
ground on a given takeoff. That, of course, gives us different AoAs
depending on whether we're looking for best angle or best rate. We don't
call it any of that, but it's exaclty what we do. on approach we select
Vso 1.3 based on the weight. So we do use a constant alpha. It's
important to avoid float, and to touch down at the right attitude so we
don't end up bouncing off the nosewheel or the tail as well. I do it in
light planes as well, and hopefully most guys do have nominal approach
speeds for different weights.. I just knock off a few knots if I'm
light, basically.


Bertie

Bertie


I've always said that if I could only have one instrument in the
airplane I'd like an angle of attack indicator. :-))
In a way we have the same problems landing in airplanes like the T38 as
you do in the big jobs. We usually are dealing with a long fuselage mass
to wing mass configuration in the fast jets that requires a specific aoa
spread at touchdown to keep from catching the tail feathers. The F104
was particularly susceptible to this. (never flew the zipper but always
wanted to). The F14 and the F16 (have flown these) are a narrow alpha
spread at touchdown.
The approaches in these airplanes all require strict wing management
right down to the ground.
With you guys, the GW can be so wide an available spread that flying an
optimum aoa would probably put you outside your landing allowance spread
to clear your tails if I understand correctly. This makes sense anyway,
considering how long some of the stuff is you guys are handling.


--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
news
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in news:J6mdnf-
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Private" wrote in
:

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
It's interesting to note that although stall recovery should be
thought of as something done with a minimum loss of altitude,
the emphasis on recovery should always be placed on the
regaining of angle of attack as PRIME to recovery.
Agreed, I have always thought of myself as flying a wing to
which is attached a fuselage rather than the reverse.


Xactly right IMO. All you need is a wing to fly, after all.

Bertie

As you already know and I can confirm emphatically , as soon as
you start flying high performance jets, it's all about wing
management.

Actualy, in the turkeys we fly it's all about nailing your pitch to
what the computer wants, but you're right, they're all about the
wing. I've always understood that to be the case, but I learned to
fly in gliders, so it was more about pefromance and less about
procedure like it is in a lot of lightplane instruction.


Bertie
In the T38 for example, the approach is flown at an optimum alpha on
the indexer or at a specific airspeed plus fuel. Either way, the
object is to keep the wing within specific limits aoa wise. The bird
will develop a sink rate that can't be recovered otherwise.
I've always wondered why you guys in the big jets don't use alpha
more on the approach. I'm guessing it's because of the complicated
fuel loads possible which gives you such a wide range of approach
speeds to bug to keep the pitch angle right at touchdown.
I know that Boeing for one is doing some research into providing
better aoa data to you on the ADI for approaches but haven't heard
much about how this outreach is being accepted by the carriers.


Well, the military guys have it. I was in a 141 sim once and that had
it. We bug a diffeent approach speed for each weight. The takeoff
speeds provide for a variety of AoAs depending on whether we want to
climb, get off a short runway or get over some obstacles. We can
select a range of V2s based on a runway analysis to get the most
weight possible off the ground on a given takeoff. That, of course,
gives us different AoAs depending on whether we're looking for best
angle or best rate. We don't call it any of that, but it's exaclty
what we do. on approach we select Vso 1.3 based on the weight. So we
do use a constant alpha. It's important to avoid float, and to touch
down at the right attitude so we don't end up bouncing off the
nosewheel or the tail as well. I do it in light planes as well, and
hopefully most guys do have nominal approach speeds for different
weights.. I just knock off a few knots if I'm light, basically.


Bertie

Bertie


I've always said that if I could only have one instrument in the
airplane I'd like an angle of attack indicator. :-))
In a way we have the same problems landing in airplanes like the T38
as you do in the big jobs. We usually are dealing with a long fuselage
mass to wing mass configuration in the fast jets that requires a
specific aoa spread at touchdown to keep from catching the tail
feathers. The F104 was particularly susceptible to this. (never flew
the zipper but always wanted to). The F14 and the F16 (have flown
these) are a narrow alpha spread at touchdown.


Yeah, I could well imagine with an airfoil like that.

The approaches in these airplanes all require strict wing management
right down to the ground.
With you guys, the GW can be so wide an available spread that flying
an optimum aoa would probably put you outside your landing allowance
spread to clear your tails if I understand correctly. This makes sense
anyway, considering how long some of the stuff is you guys are
handling.

Well, it depends on what you mean by optimum. I presume you're talking
about maintaining a healthy enough Alpha to prevent a departure, then
controllability, and finally due consideration to touchdown attitude. I
know most of the fast jet guys I fly with can't do a crosswind landing
worth a damn! They fly a straight line down to touchdonw ( good) then
pull the taps closed, yank and close their eyes. It seems to work but it
ain't pretty! We fly most of them just like airplanes, really.


Bertie