Aerotow takeoff with Cirrus, aileron rudder use

Hi all, new forum member, new transition glider pilot as of this
spring.

I just got a checkout and have done two flights in a 1970 Standard
Cirrus that our club owns. (This Cirrus model has the full flying
elevator s/n 70 I think)

I read as much as I could find on the web, thought long and hard then
went for it. Things went well the first tow. The second tow, my
right wing touched briefly on the initial roll. First time this has
happened to me. I got it up quickly and there was no yawing, so I
continued the flight uneventfully.

So, I have a question for any experienced Cirrus pilots. I've been
told that one needs both rudder and aileron combined to get a low wing
up during initial roll on aerotow. Furthermore the POH says not to
use aileron on takeoff! I don't understand either of these things. I
can understand both rudder and aileron for the first three seconds or
so if one has no wing runner, but it seems like I should just use
rudder to keep the nose straight and aileron to keep the wings level
in general. Especially after my speed is 15kts or more. This has
always worked in a Grob 103 and an ASK21 of which I have the bulk of
my hours.

.... akiley

On Jul 26, 7:29*pm, akiley wrote:
Hi all, new forum member, new transition glider pilot as of this
spring.

I just got a checkout and have done two flights in a 1970 Standard
Cirrus that our club owns. *(This Cirrus model has the full flying
elevator s/n 70 I think)

I read as much as I could find on the web, thought long and hard then
went for it. *Things went well the first tow. *The second tow, my
right wing touched briefly on the initial roll. *First time this has
happened to me. *I got it up quickly and there was no yawing, so I
continued the flight uneventfully.

So, I have a question for any experienced Cirrus pilots. *I've been
told that one needs both rudder and aileron combined to get a low wing
up during initial roll on aerotow. *Furthermore the POH says not to
use aileron on takeoff! *I don't understand either of these things. *I
can understand both rudder and aileron for the first three seconds or
so if one has no wing runner, *but it seems like I should just use
rudder to keep the nose straight and aileron to keep the wings level
in general. *Especially after my speed is 15kts or more. *This has
always worked in a Grob 103 and an ASK21 of which I have the bulk of
my hours.

... akiley

First some questions

1. Does this glider have the spoiler mod completed?
2, What type of tail wheel skid does it have?
3. If it is the rubber tail skid with wheel, what type of wheel does
it have? Plastic or rubber?
4. Have you pushed the glider over a very flat runway or tie-down and
checked that it tracks true and not left or right significantly?

Basic answers are with the Std. Cirrus you are going to use BOTH
ailerons and rudder. The ailerons quickly to counter act any drop and
the rudder to pick up the wing if it is dropping. The POH is 40 years
old and we have learned much since those were written.

Depending wind conditions and if your glider is straight (no tacking
to one side) I would recommend:

1. Light winds or winds straight down the runway. Stick full forward
and use both ailerons and rudder until the glider is stable on tow.
If you have enough time in gliders opening the spoilers will help.
Full open if you have the spoiler mod, half open if you do not.

2. Cross winds. Stick full back on the start of roll to plant the
tail until you get rudder authority, then go stick full forward to
bring the tail up.

If your glider does not track true and has the rubber tail wheel
assembly take it off and reattach it so that the glider rolls
straight. If you still have a plastic tail wheel get a good rubber
one and replace it (William's Soaring sells a good one), roller blade
wheels will work but not as well.

Tim
(500 hours in Std Cirrus)
(800 hours in Nimbus 2M)

On Jul 26, 9:49*pm, Tim Taylor wrote:
On Jul 26, 7:29*pm, akiley wrote:



Hi all, new forum member, new transition glider pilot as of this
spring.

I just got a checkout and have done two flights in a 1970 Standard
Cirrus that our club owns. *(This Cirrus model has the full flying
elevator s/n 70 I think)

I read as much as I could find on the web, thought long and hard then
went for it. *Things went well the first tow. *The second tow, my
right wing touched briefly on the initial roll. *First time this has
happened to me. *I got it up quickly and there was no yawing, so I
continued the flight uneventfully.

So, I have a question for any experienced Cirrus pilots. *I've been
told that one needs both rudder and aileron combined to get a low wing
up during initial roll on aerotow. *Furthermore the POH says not to
use aileron on takeoff! *I don't understand either of these things. *I
can understand both rudder and aileron for the first three seconds or
so if one has no wing runner, *but it seems like I should just use
rudder to keep the nose straight and aileron to keep the wings level
in general. *Especially after my speed is 15kts or more. *This has
always worked in a Grob 103 and an ASK21 of which I have the bulk of
my hours.

... akiley

First some questions

1. Does this glider have the spoiler mod completed?

No. Full spoiler handle back lets air under spoiler.

2, What type of tail wheel skid does it have?

Small yellow hard rubber wheel like a rollerblade wheel perturding
from the black skid.

3. If it is the rubber tail skid with wheel, what type of wheel does
it have? Plastic or rubber? Rubber I believe.
4. Have you pushed the glider over a very flat runway or tie-down and
checked that it tracks true and not left or right significantly?

No, but after aligning it very accurately with tow plane just prior to
each tow, it seems to track true.


Basic answers are with the Std. Cirrus you are going to use BOTH
ailerons and rudder. *The ailerons quickly to counter act any drop and
the rudder to pick up the wing if it is dropping. *The POH is 40 years
old and we have learned much since those were written.

Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal with
loosing position behind the tow?

Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
aileron authority that requires rudder?


Depending wind conditions and if your glider is straight (no tacking
to one side) I would recommend:

1. Light winds or winds straight down the runway. *Stick full forward
and use both ailerons and rudder until the glider is stable on tow.

Won't full stick forward increase the change of a PIO? I'm currently
using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.

If you have enough time in gliders opening the spoilers will help.
Full open if you have the spoiler mod, half open if you do not.

2. Cross winds. *Stick full back on the start of roll to plant the
tail until you get rudder authority, then go stick full forward to
bring the tail up.

I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. I would worry
about timing so that a POI didn't develop.


If your glider does not track true and has the rubber tail wheel
assembly take it off and reattach it so that the glider rolls
straight. *If you still have a plastic tail wheel get a good rubber
one and replace it (William's Soaring sells a good one), roller blade
wheels will work but not as well.

Thanks for the help. ... akiley


Tim
(500 hours in Std Cirrus)
(800 hours in Nimbus 2M)

On Jul 27, 2:29*am, akiley wrote:
Hi all, new forum member, new transition glider pilot as of this
spring.

I just got a checkout and have done two flights in a 1970 Standard
Cirrus that our club owns. *(This Cirrus model has the full flying
elevator s/n 70 I think)

I read as much as I could find on the web, thought long and hard then
went for it. *Things went well the first tow. *The second tow, my
right wing touched briefly on the initial roll. *First time this has
happened to me. *I got it up quickly and there was no yawing, so I
continued the flight uneventfully.

So, I have a question for any experienced Cirrus pilots. *I've been
told that one needs both rudder and aileron combined to get a low wing
up during initial roll on aerotow. *Furthermore the POH says not to
use aileron on takeoff! *I don't understand either of these things. *I
can understand both rudder and aileron for the first three seconds or
so if one has no wing runner, *but it seems like I should just use
rudder to keep the nose straight and aileron to keep the wings level
in general. *Especially after my speed is 15kts or more. *This has
always worked in a Grob 103 and an ASK21 of which I have the bulk of
my hours.

The ailerons on a Standard Cirrus are not particularly effective until
you can get the tail up and the glider running on the mainwheel. The
rudder is more effective at picking up a dropping wing at first.
Starting the ground run with the airbrakes open seems to help (but
warn the tug pilot that you are doing this for a good reason first).
Put them away as soon as you have the tail up and reasonable lateral
control. Does the Cirrus have a tail skid or a tailwheel? Having a fit
and competent wing runner on the the downwind tip helps a lot in a
light crosswind.

Derek C

On Jul 26, 8:18*pm, akiley wrote:
On Jul 26, 9:49*pm, Tim Taylor wrote:





On Jul 26, 7:29*pm, akiley wrote:

Hi all, new forum member, new transition glider pilot as of this
spring.

I just got a checkout and have done two flights in a 1970 Standard
Cirrus that our club owns. *(This Cirrus model has the full flying
elevator s/n 70 I think)

I read as much as I could find on the web, thought long and hard then
went for it. *Things went well the first tow. *The second tow, my
right wing touched briefly on the initial roll. *First time this has
happened to me. *I got it up quickly and there was no yawing, so I
continued the flight uneventfully.

So, I have a question for any experienced Cirrus pilots. *I've been
told that one needs both rudder and aileron combined to get a low wing
up during initial roll on aerotow. *Furthermore the POH says not to
use aileron on takeoff! *I don't understand either of these things. *I
can understand both rudder and aileron for the first three seconds or
so if one has no wing runner, *but it seems like I should just use
rudder to keep the nose straight and aileron to keep the wings level
in general. *Especially after my speed is 15kts or more. *This has
always worked in a Grob 103 and an ASK21 of which I have the bulk of
my hours.

... akiley

First some questions

1. Does this glider have the spoiler mod completed?

No. *Full spoiler handle back lets air under spoiler.

2, What type of tail wheel skid does it have?

Small yellow hard rubber wheel like a rollerblade wheel perturding
from the black skid.

3. If it is the rubber tail skid with wheel, what type of wheel does
it have? Plastic or rubber? *Rubber I believe.
4. Have you pushed the glider over a very flat runway or tie-down and
checked that it tracks true and not left or right significantly?

No, but after aligning it very accurately with tow plane just prior to
each tow, it seems to track true.



Basic answers are with the Std. Cirrus you are going to use BOTH
ailerons and rudder. *The ailerons quickly to counter act any drop and
the rudder to pick up the wing if it is dropping. *The POH is 40 years
old and we have learned much since those were written.

Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal with
loosing position behind the tow?

Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
aileron authority that requires rudder?



Depending wind conditions and if your glider is straight (no tacking
to one side) I would recommend:

1. Light winds or winds straight down the runway. *Stick full forward
and use both ailerons and rudder until the glider is stable on tow.

Won't full stick forward increase the change of a PIO? *I'm currently
using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.

If you have enough time in gliders opening the spoilers will help.
Full open if you have the spoiler mod, half open if you do not.

2. Cross winds. *Stick full back on the start of roll to plant the
tail until you get rudder authority, then go stick full forward to
bring the tail up.

I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. *I would worry
about timing so that a POI didn't develop.



If your glider does not track true and has the rubber tail wheel
assembly take it off and reattach it so that the glider rolls
straight. *If you still have a plastic tail wheel get a good rubber
one and replace it (William's Soaring sells a good one), roller blade
wheels will work but not as well.

Thanks for the help. *... akiley



Tim
(500 hours in Std Cirrus)
(800 hours in Nimbus 2M)


1. Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal
with
loosing position behind the tow?

You would if you leave the rudder in too long. I teach new pilots to
think of it as boxing. Most of the inputs are jabs, in for a fraction
of second and out again. The goal is to keep the glider balanced.
Think of it as trying to balance on top of a ball.

2. Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
aileron authority that requires rudder?

The rudder is in and out to keep directional stability and to pick up
a wing if it gets to low. The Std Cirrus has a CG hook, you can't let
it turn much or it will want to break to one side.

3. Won't full stick forward increase the chance of a PIO? *I'm
currently
using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.

No, the full stick is just to raise the tail, once it is up you will
be about neutral stick with slight back pressure to rotate. The PIO
in all flying tails comes if you are not steady at that point.

4. I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. *I would
worry
about timing so that a POI didn't develop.

Again the PIO only comes once you are in the air and if you are not
gentle on the controls. Often it is best to rest your arm on your lap
to minimize the motion in your hand.

On Jul 27, 6:02*am, Tim Taylor wrote:
On Jul 26, 8:18*pm, akiley wrote:





On Jul 26, 9:49*pm, Tim Taylor wrote:

On Jul 26, 7:29*pm, akiley wrote:

Hi all, new forum member, new transition glider pilot as of this
spring.

I just got a checkout and have done two flights in a 1970 Standard
Cirrus that our club owns. *(This Cirrus model has the full flying
elevator s/n 70 I think)

I read as much as I could find on the web, thought long and hard then
went for it. *Things went well the first tow. *The second tow, my
right wing touched briefly on the initial roll. *First time this has
happened to me. *I got it up quickly and there was no yawing, so I
continued the flight uneventfully.

So, I have a question for any experienced Cirrus pilots. *I've been
told that one needs both rudder and aileron combined to get a low wing
up during initial roll on aerotow. *Furthermore the POH says not to
use aileron on takeoff! *I don't understand either of these things. *I
can understand both rudder and aileron for the first three seconds or
so if one has no wing runner, *but it seems like I should just use
rudder to keep the nose straight and aileron to keep the wings level
in general. *Especially after my speed is 15kts or more. *This has
always worked in a Grob 103 and an ASK21 of which I have the bulk of
my hours.

... akiley

First some questions

1. Does this glider have the spoiler mod completed?

No. *Full spoiler handle back lets air under spoiler.

2, What type of tail wheel skid does it have?

Small yellow hard rubber wheel like a rollerblade wheel perturding
from the black skid.

3. If it is the rubber tail skid with wheel, what type of wheel does
it have? Plastic or rubber? *Rubber I believe.
4. Have you pushed the glider over a very flat runway or tie-down and
checked that it tracks true and not left or right significantly?

No, but after aligning it very accurately with tow plane just prior to
each tow, it seems to track true.

Basic answers are with the Std. Cirrus you are going to use BOTH
ailerons and rudder. *The ailerons quickly to counter act any drop and
the rudder to pick up the wing if it is dropping. *The POH is 40 years
old and we have learned much since those were written.

Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal with
loosing position behind the tow?

Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
aileron authority that requires rudder?

Depending wind conditions and if your glider is straight (no tacking
to one side) I would recommend:

1. Light winds or winds straight down the runway. *Stick full forward
and use both ailerons and rudder until the glider is stable on tow.

Won't full stick forward increase the change of a PIO? *I'm currently
using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.

If you have enough time in gliders opening the spoilers will help.
Full open if you have the spoiler mod, half open if you do not.

2. Cross winds. *Stick full back on the start of roll to plant the
tail until you get rudder authority, then go stick full forward to
bring the tail up.

I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. *I would worry
about timing so that a POI didn't develop.

If your glider does not track true and has the rubber tail wheel
assembly take it off and reattach it so that the glider rolls
straight. *If you still have a plastic tail wheel get a good rubber
one and replace it (William's Soaring sells a good one), roller blade
wheels will work but not as well.

Thanks for the help. *... akiley

Tim
(500 hours in Std Cirrus)
(800 hours in Nimbus 2M)

1. Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal
with
loosing position behind the tow?

You would if you leave the rudder in too long. *I teach new pilots to
think of it as boxing. *Most of the inputs are jabs, in for a fraction
of second and out again. *The goal is to keep the glider balanced.
Think of it as trying to balance on top of a ball.

2. Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
*aileron authority that requires rudder?

The rudder is in and out to keep directional stability and to pick up
a wing if it gets to low. *The Std Cirrus has a CG hook, you can't let
it turn much or it will want to break to one side.

3. Won't full stick forward increase the chance of a PIO? *I'm
currently
using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.

No, the full stick is just to raise the tail, once it is up you will
be about neutral stick with slight back pressure to rotate. *The PIO
in all flying tails comes if you are not steady at that point.

4. I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. *I would
worry
about timing so that a POI didn't develop.

Again the PIO only comes once you are in the air and if you are not
gentle on the controls. Often it is best to rest your arm on your lap
to minimize the motion in your hand.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would not start with the stick hard forward in a Std Cirrus.
Slightly forward of centre seems to give a good compromise between
keeping the tailwheel or skid on the ground to keep it initially
running straight and then getting the tail up. If you winch launch the
glider, holding the stick hard forward can risk an elevator stall on
rotation.

Derek C

On 7/26/2010 6:49 PM, Tim Taylor wrote:

1. Light winds or winds straight down the runway. Stick full forward
and use both ailerons and rudder until the glider is stable on tow.
If you have enough time in gliders opening the spoilers will help.
Full open if you have the spoiler mod, half open if you do not.


I suggest using full back stick in #1, same as in #2 below. It does no
harm, and keeps the procedures the same for winds from any direction.
2. Cross winds. Stick full back on the start of roll to plant the
tail until you get rudder authority, then go stick full forward to
bring the tail up.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

OK - I have a similar serial number Std Cirrus.

Quite a lot less time in it than Tim though.

My experience is - use both aileron and rudder.
With a tail wheel it helps to keep the tail down for the first part of
the run (stick aft of neutral - but no need to hold hard back) that way
the glider tracks much straighter.
In the initial part of the run the ailerons are very ineffectual and
large deflections can stall them.

So - I would agree with prior advice in general. What works for me is to
use rudder and aileron in inverse proportion as the speed increases. By
the time you are at flying speed you should be flying co-ordinated.
At very low speed you will be wanting to use rudder a lot more than
ailerons.

Using the airbrakes on the initial part of the run means the ailerons
are effective far earlier as they divert airflow over the top of the
aileron. Don't try to put them away too close to flying speed - you
might find yourself with a balloon and PIO.

Particularly for winch launching it is a poor idea to use full forward
elevator on a full flying elevator Cirrus on the initial run. You run
the risk of stalling the elevator. Particularly if the pilot is light
and / or the CG is aft. Also any contol held at the stop limits the
available actions (you can only move it one way...)

My Cirrus has the CG very far aft, and is perfectly controllable with
the stick 60-70% forward on a winch launch. On aerotow I hold some aft
pressure till I feel the controls bite then smoothly forward till the
tail comes up. The last thing you want is to be attached to a CG tow
hook pivoting around the main wheel at low speed with big control
deflections.

As Tim said rudder inputs should be a brief deflection to pick a wing up
then back to whatever was tracking you straight - this may be quite a
large deflection in the case of a strong cross wind.

Bruce

On 2010/07/27 7:02 AM, Tim Taylor wrote:
On Jul 26, 8:18 pm, wrote:
On Jul 26, 9:49 pm, Tim wrote:





On Jul 26, 7:29 pm, wrote:

Hi all, new forum member, new transition glider pilot as of this
spring.

I just got a checkout and have done two flights in a 1970 Standard
Cirrus that our club owns. (This Cirrus model has the full flying
elevator s/n 70 I think)

I read as much as I could find on the web, thought long and hard then
went for it. Things went well the first tow. The second tow, my
right wing touched briefly on the initial roll. First time this has
happened to me. I got it up quickly and there was no yawing, so I
continued the flight uneventfully.

So, I have a question for any experienced Cirrus pilots. I've been
told that one needs both rudder and aileron combined to get a low wing
up during initial roll on aerotow. Furthermore the POH says not to
use aileron on takeoff! I don't understand either of these things. I
can understand both rudder and aileron for the first three seconds or
so if one has no wing runner, but it seems like I should just use
rudder to keep the nose straight and aileron to keep the wings level
in general. Especially after my speed is 15kts or more. This has
always worked in a Grob 103 and an ASK21 of which I have the bulk of
my hours.

... akiley

First some questions

1. Does this glider have the spoiler mod completed?

No. Full spoiler handle back lets air under spoiler.

2, What type of tail wheel skid does it have?

Small yellow hard rubber wheel like a rollerblade wheel perturding
from the black skid.

3. If it is the rubber tail skid with wheel, what type of wheel does
it have? Plastic or rubber? Rubber I believe.
4. Have you pushed the glider over a very flat runway or tie-down and
checked that it tracks true and not left or right significantly?

No, but after aligning it very accurately with tow plane just prior to
each tow, it seems to track true.



Basic answers are with the Std. Cirrus you are going to use BOTH
ailerons and rudder. The ailerons quickly to counter act any drop and
the rudder to pick up the wing if it is dropping. The POH is 40 years
old and we have learned much since those were written.

Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal with
loosing position behind the tow?

Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
aileron authority that requires rudder?



Depending wind conditions and if your glider is straight (no tacking
to one side) I would recommend:

1. Light winds or winds straight down the runway. Stick full forward
and use both ailerons and rudder until the glider is stable on tow.

Won't full stick forward increase the change of a PIO? I'm currently
using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.

If you have enough time in gliders opening the spoilers will help.
Full open if you have the spoiler mod, half open if you do not.

2. Cross winds. Stick full back on the start of roll to plant the
tail until you get rudder authority, then go stick full forward to
bring the tail up.

I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. I would worry
about timing so that a POI didn't develop.



If your glider does not track true and has the rubber tail wheel
assembly take it off and reattach it so that the glider rolls
straight. If you still have a plastic tail wheel get a good rubber
one and replace it (William's Soaring sells a good one), roller blade
wheels will work but not as well.

Thanks for the help. ... akiley



Tim
(500 hours in Std Cirrus)
(800 hours in Nimbus 2M)


1. Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal
with
loosing position behind the tow?

You would if you leave the rudder in too long. I teach new pilots to
think of it as boxing. Most of the inputs are jabs, in for a fraction
of second and out again. The goal is to keep the glider balanced.
Think of it as trying to balance on top of a ball.

2. Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
aileron authority that requires rudder?

The rudder is in and out to keep directional stability and to pick up
a wing if it gets to low. The Std Cirrus has a CG hook, you can't let
it turn much or it will want to break to one side.

3. Won't full stick forward increase the chance of a PIO? I'm
currently
using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.

No, the full stick is just to raise the tail, once it is up you will
be about neutral stick with slight back pressure to rotate. The PIO
in all flying tails comes if you are not steady at that point.

4. I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. I would
worry
about timing so that a POI didn't develop.

Again the PIO only comes once you are in the air and if you are not
gentle on the controls. Often it is best to rest your arm on your lap
to minimize the motion in your hand.






--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

Perhaps a slightly different take on this....

Akiley,

Part of learning a new type is learning how much and when to apply the
inputs. You said it was only your second flight in the ship? Sounds
like you recovered quickly and didn't really have any problems. All
the very detailed discussion is useful to a point, but you might end
up over analyzing and overthinking the problem. If you continue to
drop a wing and struggle with it, then it might be useful to pull an
instructor in and help you diagnose and correct the problem. I'm more
inclined to believe it's the natural process of learning a new
sailplane. Sounds to me like you're doing well and whatever
instinctive and natural responses you had, were sufficient to raise
the wing and keep you in control.

This isn't to discount anything said by others. It's all good advice.
And using a rudder to pick up the wing will help when you move up into
even longer spanned ships.

-Kevin

I used to have a share in an early Std Cirrus (pre-washout change)
that had a particularly difficult case of poor low speed aileron
control and we used the open airbrake technique as well as lots of
rudder to keep the wings level. Many years later a friend and I
rented the same glider for a year and my friend put mylar seals over
the top and bottom surface aileron gaps (instead of the original top
surface only tape) and also installed mylar rudder seals. To my great
surprise the ground run aileron control was greatly improved -
transformed in fact - not only that but it changed from being a
vicious little spinner to rather benign at the stall.

I suspect that it is something to do with the large draggy lower hinge
line gap when the aileron is at full up deflection.

John Galloway