Dog Fight For the Presidency

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
k.net...

"Ragnar" wrote in message
...

"WalterM140" wrote in message
om...
It's a marvel, really. Even a $10,000
reward offered this year by the cartoonist Garry Trudeau couldn't
smoke out a credible eyewitness to support George W. Bush's contention
that he showed up to defend Alabama against the Viet Cong in 1972.


Which leads to the rather unstartling conclusion that no such witness
exists, and that Bush was present. Rather bad for your Bush-bashing.


A witness did come forward and Trudeau paid.

No, Steven, he did not pay the reward to any witness, despite at least one
credible one coming forward. "It turns out that no credible witness has come
forward to claim the prize, so this week Trudeau mailed a personal check for
$10,000 to the USO. "We're extremely grateful for his generosity," USO Vice
President John Hansen told me yesterday."
www.pro-war.com/prowardotcom/2004/week12/

Brooks

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

A witness did come forward and Trudeau paid.

No, Steven, he did not pay the reward to any witness, despite at least one
credible one coming forward. "It turns out that no credible witness has
come
forward to claim the prize, so this week Trudeau mailed a personal check
for
$10,000 to the USO. "We're extremely grateful for his generosity," USO
Vice
President John Hansen told me yesterday."
www.pro-war.com/prowardotcom/2004/week12/


No, Kevin, he didn't pay the reward to any witness. From the start, the
reward was not to be paid to the witness, it was to be paid to the USO.
After the witness came forward Trudeau very quickly, and very quietly, paid
off as promised.

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

No, Steven, he did not pay the reward to any witness, despite at least
one credible one coming forward. "It turns out that no credible
witness has come forward to claim the prize, so this week Trudeau
mailed a
personal check for $10,000 to the USO. "We're extremely grateful for
his generosity," USO Vice President John Hansen told me yesterday."
www.pro-war.com/prowardotcom/2004/week12/



No, Kevin, he didn't pay the reward to any witness. From the start, the
reward was not to be paid to the witness, it was to be paid to the USO.
After the witness came forward Trudeau very quickly, and very quietly,
paid off as promised.


Steven, what is so hard to understand about, "It turns out that no
credible witness has come forward to claim the prize..."? The money
was offered up as an individual reward--he only gave it to the USO after
he claimed no credible witness had come forward. Do a Google on it.
Even you should be able to handle that difficult task.


Yes, Kevin, I can perform a Google search. If you were capable of that
rather simple task you might have learned that the Trudeau prize was NOT
offered up as an individual reward. See the last of the FAQs below:


http://doonesbury.msn.com/strip/bush_guard.html


For the past twelve years, George W. Bush has had to endure charges that he
didn't take the final two years of his Guard service as seriously as duty
required. (For updated timeline, click here.) And the two witnesses who have
come forward in support so far haven't exactly cleared things up. We at the
Town Hall believe that with everything he has on his plate, Mr. Bush
shouldn't have to contend with attacks on the National Guard, which is
serving so bravely in Iraq. And we're willing to back up our support with
cold, hard cash.

Granted, this has been tried before. In 2000, concerned veterans in both
Texas and Alabama offered cash rewards to lure former guardmates of Mr. Bush
into stepping forward, to no avail. The problem, in our view, was that these
enticements weren't serious enough, that the sums offered were insulting. In
contrast, we at the DTH&WP respect how inconvenient it can be to subject
yourself to worldwide media scrutiny in general, and Fox News in particular,
and are thus prepared to sweeten previous offers by a factor of five. That's
right, we're offering $10,000 cash! Yours to either spend or invest in job
creation. All you have to do is definitively prove that George W. Bush
fulfilled his duty to country.

So don't let the smear artists define the president. If you personally
witnessed George W. Bush reporting for drills at Dannelly Air National Guard
Base between the months of May and November of 1972 we want to hear about
it. Help Mr. Bush put this partisan assault on his character behind him, so
he can focus on more serious issues like jobs, the deficit and the coming
civil war in Iraq. Just contact us below with the salient details. If we
think you're a possible winner, we'll get back to you pronto. Good luck to
all contestants!

Contest FAQs

Q: Isn't this just a publicity stunt?
A: If by a publicity stunt, you mean an attempt to draw attention to the
problem of gutter politics, trolling-for-trash, and cheap smear tactics,
then sure, guilty as charged.

Q: What if I saw Bush, but I can't prove it? Can I get some of the money?
A: No, but if your story's entertaining enough, you may qualify for our
consolation prize, an original Doonesbury strip personally signed by a top
studio intern.

Q: Haven't you done something like this before?
A: Yes, only in reverse -- the goal was implication, not exoneration. In
1992, we offered an Austin Powers-like $25.00 to anyone willing to admit she
slept with a presidential candidate. The entry form was multiple-choice with
a few essay questions (e.g. "You're dating a married father of three with
presidential ambitions. You believe that you and he have a future together.
Explain.") There were no takers.

Q: The DTH&WP is a media content web site, which means you're broke. Who's
paying the reward?
A: The reward is being generously underwritten by Doonesbury creator G. B.
Trudeau. The money has been put in escrow and is being administered by
Universal Press Syndicate.


Q: It's really in escrow?
A: No, but we're good for it. Thanks to Bush's massive tax cuts for people
who don't need them, GBT is flush.

Q: Are employees of Universal Press Syndicate, Slate or Microsoft eligible
for the contest?
A: Only if no one else comes forward.

Q: Is there some sort of hitch?
A: Well, yes, but it's a hitch for a good cause. The winner won't actually
receive the reward for himself; instead we'll be donating $10,000 in his
name to the USO. That way everyone's a winner, including GBT's tax
accountant.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
k.net...
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

No, Steven, he did not pay the reward to any witness, despite at
least
one credible one coming forward. "It turns out that no credible
witness has come forward to claim the prize, so this week Trudeau
mailed a
personal check for $10,000 to the USO. "We're extremely grateful for
his generosity," USO Vice President John Hansen told me yesterday."
www.pro-war.com/prowardotcom/2004/week12/



No, Kevin, he didn't pay the reward to any witness. From the start,
the
reward was not to be paid to the witness, it was to be paid to the
USO.
After the witness came forward Trudeau very quickly, and very quietly,
paid off as promised.


Steven, what is so hard to understand about, "It turns out that no
credible witness has come forward to claim the prize..."? The money
was offered up as an individual reward--he only gave it to the USO after
he claimed no credible witness had come forward. Do a Google on it.
Even you should be able to handle that difficult task.


Yes, Kevin, I can perform a Google search. If you were capable of that
rather simple task you might have learned that the Trudeau prize was NOT
offered up as an individual reward. See the last of the FAQs below:

Note the following direct quotes from your own cite: "And the two witnesses
who have
come forward in support so far haven't exactly cleared things up" and
"That's
right, we're offering $10,000 cash! Yours to either spend or invest in job
creation." Now tell us again how he recognized one of the witnesses as being
credible? Can you point out which witness was allegedly found to be credible
by Mr. Trudeau and Co.? As to where the money was destined, it seems the ad
posits two differing claims--the one above, and the one about it going to
the USO.

Brooks



http://doonesbury.msn.com/strip/bush_guard.html


For the past twelve years, George W. Bush has had to endure charges that
he
didn't take the final two years of his Guard service as seriously as duty
required. (For updated timeline, click here.) And the two witnesses who
have
come forward in support so far haven't exactly cleared things up. We at
the
Town Hall believe that with everything he has on his plate, Mr. Bush
shouldn't have to contend with attacks on the National Guard, which is
serving so bravely in Iraq. And we're willing to back up our support with
cold, hard cash.

Granted, this has been tried before. In 2000, concerned veterans in both
Texas and Alabama offered cash rewards to lure former guardmates of Mr.
Bush
into stepping forward, to no avail. The problem, in our view, was that
these
enticements weren't serious enough, that the sums offered were insulting.
In
contrast, we at the DTH&WP respect how inconvenient it can be to subject
yourself to worldwide media scrutiny in general, and Fox News in
particular,
and are thus prepared to sweeten previous offers by a factor of five.
That's
right, we're offering $10,000 cash! Yours to either spend or invest in job
creation. All you have to do is definitively prove that George W. Bush
fulfilled his duty to country.

So don't let the smear artists define the president. If you personally
witnessed George W. Bush reporting for drills at Dannelly Air National
Guard
Base between the months of May and November of 1972 we want to hear about
it. Help Mr. Bush put this partisan assault on his character behind him,
so
he can focus on more serious issues like jobs, the deficit and the coming
civil war in Iraq. Just contact us below with the salient details. If we
think you're a possible winner, we'll get back to you pronto. Good luck to
all contestants!

Contest FAQs

Q: Isn't this just a publicity stunt?
A: If by a publicity stunt, you mean an attempt to draw attention to the
problem of gutter politics, trolling-for-trash, and cheap smear tactics,
then sure, guilty as charged.

Q: What if I saw Bush, but I can't prove it? Can I get some of the money?
A: No, but if your story's entertaining enough, you may qualify for our
consolation prize, an original Doonesbury strip personally signed by a top
studio intern.

Q: Haven't you done something like this before?
A: Yes, only in reverse -- the goal was implication, not exoneration. In
1992, we offered an Austin Powers-like $25.00 to anyone willing to admit
she
slept with a presidential candidate. The entry form was multiple-choice
with
a few essay questions (e.g. "You're dating a married father of three with
presidential ambitions. You believe that you and he have a future
together.
Explain.") There were no takers.

Q: The DTH&WP is a media content web site, which means you're broke. Who's
paying the reward?
A: The reward is being generously underwritten by Doonesbury creator G. B.
Trudeau. The money has been put in escrow and is being administered by
Universal Press Syndicate.


Q: It's really in escrow?
A: No, but we're good for it. Thanks to Bush's massive tax cuts for people
who don't need them, GBT is flush.

Q: Are employees of Universal Press Syndicate, Slate or Microsoft eligible
for the contest?
A: Only if no one else comes forward.

Q: Is there some sort of hitch?
A: Well, yes, but it's a hitch for a good cause. The winner won't actually
receive the reward for himself; instead we'll be donating $10,000 in his
name to the USO. That way everyone's a winner, including GBT's tax
accountant.

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

Yes, Kevin, I can perform a Google search. If you were capable of that
rather simple task you might have learned that the Trudeau prize was NOT
offered up as an individual reward. See the last of the FAQs below:


Note the following direct quotes from your own cite: "And the two
witnesses who have come forward in support so far haven't exactly
cleared things up" and "That's right, we're offering $10,000 cash! Yours
to either spend or invest in job creation." Now tell us again how he
recognized one of the witnesses as being credible? Can you point out
which witness was allegedly found to be credible by Mr. Trudeau
and Co.?


I didn't say Trudeau recognized one of the witnesses as credible, I said a
credible witness came forward and Trudeau paid the reward as specified in
the offer. The witness was Lt. Col. John Calhoun. He remembered sharing an
office with Lt. Bush and dining with him.



As to where the money was destined, it seems the ad posits two
differing claims--the one above, and the one about it going to
the USO.


Yeah, commonly referred to as "the fine print", "the catch", "the hitch",
etc.

The point is someone came forward and Trudeau paid. If nobody had come
forward to prove Bush's service he wouldn't have paid, at least not before
the election. He'd have been trumpeting "still no witness" all the way to
election day! He paid very quickly, and very quietly, after Lt. Col.
Calhoun verified Bush's service. If he hadn't the Republicans would have
lambasted him for reneging on his offer, and he'd probably be facing a
lawsuit.




http://makeashorterlink.com/?F22924488


Former Guardsman: Bush served with me in Alabama

By the Associated Press

A retired Alabama Air National Guard officer said Friday that he remembers
George Bush showing up for duty in Alabama in 1972, reading safety magazines
and flight manuals in an office as he performed his weekend obligations. "I
saw him each drill period," retired Lt. Col. John "Bill" Calhoun said in a
telephone interview with The Associated Press from Daytona Beach, Fla.,
where he is preparing to watch this weekend's big NASCAR race.

"He was very aggressive about doing his duty there. He never complained
about it. ... He was very dedicated to what he was doing in the Guard. He
showed up on time and he left at the end of the day."

Calhoun, whose name was supplied to the AP by a Republican close to Bush, is
the first member of the 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group to recall Bush
distinctly at the Alabama base in the period of 1972-1973. He was the unit's
flight safety officer.

The 69-year-old president of an Atlanta insulation company said Bush showed
up for work at Dannelly Air National Guard Base for drills on at least six
occasions. Bush and Calhoun had both been trained as fighter pilots, and
Calhoun said the two would swap "war stories" and even eat lunch together on
base.

Calhoun is named in 187th unit rosters obtained by the AP as serving under
the deputy commander of operations plans. Bush was in Alabama on non-flying
status.

"He sat in my office most of the time - he would read," Calhoun said. "He
had your training manuals from your aircraft he was flying. He'd study those
some. He'd read safety magazines, which is a common thing for pilots."

Democrats have asked for proof that Bush, then a 1st lieutenant with the
Texas Air National Guard, turned up for duty in Alabama, where Bush had
asked to be assigned while he worked on the U.S. Senate campaign of family
friend Winton "Red" Blount.

Pay and medical records released by the White House this week failed to
quash allegations that Bush shirked his Guard responsibilities. (Related
story: Bush's driving records disclosed)

The 187th's former commander, retired Brig. Gen. William Turnipseed, has
said he doesn't remember Bush ever turning up on base, and more than a dozen
members of the 800-person unit, including its commander, told The Associated
Press this week they have no recollection of Bush. Critics have made much of
the fact that the White House has failed to produce anyone who could
remember seeing Bush there.

Calhoun said he contacted Texas GOP leaders with his story in 2000 when the
issue was raised just before the November general election.

"I got on the phone and got information and called Austin, Texas, and talked
to the Republican campaign. They said I was talking to the campaign
manager," he said. "I told him my story and said I would be glad to provide
information to that effect. At that time they said ... The story is not
true. And we don't think it's got enough weight to stay out as a story.' And
they said, 'But if it does we'll call you back.' And I never heard from them
again."

Last week as the issue raged again, Calhoun sent an e-mail to the White
House offering to tell his story. "I got a response back, one of those
automatic responses," he said. It wasn't until his wife contacted Georgia
GOP officials that Calhoun's name surfaced.

White House press secretary Scott McClellan said Friday that the White House
was not making any effort to try to locate people who might have served with
Bush. He also accused reporters of trying to raise new lines of questioning,
beyond whether Bush served in Alabama.

Critics have suggested that Bush used his family connections to get the safe
Guard assignment ahead of thousands of others. But Calhoun said Bush never
mentioned his congressman father while they sat together at Dannelly.

"I knew he was working in the senatorial campaign, and I asked him if he was
going to be a politician," said Calhoun, who is a staunch Republican. "And
he said, 'I don't know. Probably.'"

Calhoun has not made any donations to Bush this election season or during
the 2000 season, according to campaign finance records.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

Yes, Kevin, I can perform a Google search. If you were capable of that
rather simple task you might have learned that the Trudeau prize was
NOT
offered up as an individual reward. See the last of the FAQs below:


Note the following direct quotes from your own cite: "And the two
witnesses who have come forward in support so far haven't exactly
cleared things up" and "That's right, we're offering $10,000 cash! Yours
to either spend or invest in job creation." Now tell us again how he
recognized one of the witnesses as being credible? Can you point out
which witness was allegedly found to be credible by Mr. Trudeau
and Co.?


I didn't say Trudeau recognized one of the witnesses as credible, I said a
credible witness came forward and Trudeau paid the reward as specified in
the offer. The witness was Lt. Col. John Calhoun. He remembered sharing
an
office with Lt. Bush and dining with him.

Nice try--that article (13 Feb) about Calhoun was published *before* Trudeau
made his offer; Calhoun was one of the two "not credible" witnesses
mentioned in Trudeau's initial release.

www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/ 02/27/elec04.bush.doonesbury.reut/




As to where the money was destined, it seems the ad posits two
differing claims--the one above, and the one about it going to
the USO.


Yeah, commonly referred to as "the fine print", "the catch", "the hitch",
etc.

The point is someone came forward and Trudeau paid. If nobody had come
forward to prove Bush's service he wouldn't have paid, at least not before
the election. He'd have been trumpeting "still no witness" all the way to
election day! He paid very quickly, and very quietly, after Lt. Col.
Calhoun verified Bush's service. If he hadn't the Republicans would have
lambasted him for reneging on his offer, and he'd probably be facing a
lawsuit.

Nope, the point is that Trudeau refised to consider either Calhoun or the
lady from Alabama (the other witness who had already come forward) as meeing
his own strange criteria for credibility, and both of them had come forward
*before* Trudeau issued his challenge. There has been no mention that
Calhoun ever even *submitted* for the reward. And FYI, Trudeau was still
trumpeting that no witness had come forward when he made that presentation
to the USO.

"Four weeks ago, "Doonesbury" creator Garry Trudeau announced in his cartoon
strip the "Bush Guard Service" contest: "We're offering $10,000 cash to any
witness who can definitively corroborate Mr. Bush's claim" that three
decades before he became President, he served in the Alabama National Guard.
"So if you served with Mr. Bush - even if only in the officers' club - we
want to hear from you right now! Why? So we can put this trash story to rest
and get back to the real issues." Well, it turns out that no credible
witness has come forward to claim the prize, so this week Trudeau mailed a
personal check for $10,000 to the USO."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/goss...p-152467c.html

Or, you can take it in the words of Trudeau himself: " Alas, none of the
over 1600 entries we received qualified for the proferred $10,000."

www.doonesbury.com/strip/faqs/faq_sl.html

So, to sum it all up--you were wrong, weren't you?

Brooks

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

Nice try--that article (13 Feb) about Calhoun was published *before*
Trudeau made his offer;


Yup, ten days before. You'd think a political cartoonist would make some
effort to stay on top of things.



Calhoun was one of the two "not credible" witnesses
mentioned in Trudeau's initial release.


Calhoun was a "credible witness" by any reasonable definition.



Nope, the point is that Trudeau refised to consider either Calhoun or the
lady from Alabama (the other witness who had already come forward) as
meeing his own strange criteria for credibility, and both of them had come
forward *before* Trudeau issued his challenge. There has been no
mention that Calhoun ever even *submitted* for the reward. And FYI,
Trudeau was still trumpeting that no witness had come forward when he
made that presentation to the USO.

"Four weeks ago, "Doonesbury" creator Garry Trudeau announced in his
cartoon strip the "Bush Guard Service" contest: "We're offering $10,000
cash to any witness who can definitively corroborate Mr. Bush's claim"
that three decades before he became President, he served in the Alabama
National Guard. "So if you served with Mr. Bush - even if only in the
officers' club - we want to hear from you right now! Why? So we can put
this trash story to rest and get back to the real issues." Well, it turns
out
that no credible witness has come forward to claim the prize, so this
week Trudeau mailed a personal check for $10,000 to the USO."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/goss...p-152467c.html

Or, you can take it in the words of Trudeau himself: " Alas, none of the
over 1600 entries we received qualified for the proferred $10,000."

www.doonesbury.com/strip/faqs/faq_sl.html


"So if you served with Mr. Bush - even if only in the officers' club - we
want to hear from you right now!", says Trudeau. Well, Calhoun meets that
criterion.



So, to sum it all up--you were wrong, weren't you?


No, Kevin, I wasn't wrong. You were wrong. I said a witness came forward
and Trudeau paid the USO. That is what happened. You said the money was
offered up as an individual reward. But it wasn't offered as an individual
reward, the money was to go to the USO from the start.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?M23723A39

Yeah, commonly referred to as "the fine print", "the catch", "the hitch",
etc.

The point is someone came forward and Trudeau paid. If nobody had come
forward to prove Bush's service he wouldn't have paid, at least not before
the election. He'd have been trumpeting "still no witness" all the way to
election day! He paid very quickly, and very quietly, after Lt. Col.
Calhoun verified Bush's service. If he hadn't the Republicans would have
lambasted him for reneging on his offer, and he'd probably be facing a
lawsuit.

Then why is the offer still posted?

http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/bush_guard.html

Apparently Calhoun's dates did not jibe with the dates that Bush claims to have
been in Alabama, and the money was never paid.
Maybe he mistook The Kingfish for GWB.

"Tom Cervo" wrote in message
...
Yeah, commonly referred to as "the fine print", "the catch", "the hitch",
etc.

The point is someone came forward and Trudeau paid. If nobody had come
forward to prove Bush's service he wouldn't have paid, at least not
before
the election. He'd have been trumpeting "still no witness" all the way
to
election day! He paid very quickly, and very quietly, after Lt. Col.
Calhoun verified Bush's service. If he hadn't the Republicans would have
lambasted him for reneging on his offer, and he'd probably be facing a
lawsuit.

Then why is the offer still posted?

Maybe for the same reason oodles of webpages from thre and four years ago
are still posted.


http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/bush_guard.html

Apparently Calhoun's dates did not jibe with the dates that Bush claims to
have
been in Alabama,

Can you point to any evidence of that? No? Nobody has yet been able to
indict Calhoun's account.

and the money was never paid.

The USO did receive a check, and the contest is no longer.

Brooks

snip

"Tom Cervo" wrote in message
...

Then why is the offer still posted?

http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/bush_guard.html


Same reason many outdated webpages are still available.



Apparently Calhoun's dates did not jibe with the dates that Bush claims to
have been in Alabama, and the money was never paid.
Maybe he mistook The Kingfish for GWB.


Or maybe he's just a bit fuzzy on the dates after more than thirty years.

I can clearly remember many things from throughout my life that I can't pin
down to a specific date. A canoe trip as a Boy Scout, for example. It was
on the Oconto River. We came upon same fast water and hit a submerged tree,
capsizing us. Had to dry out all our gear at our campsite in Suring. I can
remember the trip, but I can't remember the date. It would have been in the
summer of 1970 or 1971.

Why should it be any different with Calhoun? He served in the Alabama ANG a
long time, briefly alongside George Bush. He remembers him, they shared an
office, sometimes they dined together. So what if he got the dates wrong?
Did Trudeau expect a witness to present a diary, with entries like "7/8/72 -
Dined today with George W. Bush. Had the special. Got gas."? If he'd had
that kind of detail Trudeau would have claimed it was a fabrication, and
probably have been right!