New MOAs proposed near Marine Corp base and Mt Patterson

On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 7:11:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
[snip]
I spoke to an FAA avionics inspector at the Spokane FSDO about this very issue. The answer: ALL military aircraft must be in the same compliance as civilian aircraft, so they have transponders and ADS-B. I can't say whether those fighters had their transponders turned off, or my flarm didn't receive the signals. In other words, it was a FWIW.


That is not a correct statement. There are exemption for military and others for use of ADS-B Out within civilian airspace.

14 CFR 92.225 (f) (1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

....As amended earlier this year, but its been long coming/well understood the regulations were screwed up because they were missing such a clause and something was coming that would fix it. And this is in addition to what military aircraft will do in their own airspace. Military aircraft doing say stealth and ECM countermeasures work out at Fallon or Edwards within their airspace are not running around with transponders or ADS-B on.

And lest anybody think this exemption is really only going to be applied to specific high-risk missions... the US military is expect to have ~21% of it's aircraft ADS-B Out equipped by January 1st 2020. They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says

On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 8:50:24 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 7:11:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
[snip]
I spoke to an FAA avionics inspector at the Spokane FSDO about this very issue. The answer: ALL military aircraft must be in the same compliance as civilian aircraft, so they have transponders and ADS-B. I can't say whether those fighters had their transponders turned off, or my flarm didn't receive the signals. In other words, it was a FWIW.


That is not a correct statement. There are exemption for military and others for use of ADS-B Out within civilian airspace.

14 CFR 92.225 (f) (1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

...As amended earlier this year, but its been long coming/well understood the regulations were screwed up because they were missing such a clause and something was coming that would fix it. And this is in addition to what military aircraft will do in their own airspace. Military aircraft doing say stealth and ECM countermeasures work out at Fallon or Edwards within their airspace are not running around with transponders or ADS-B on.

And lest anybody think this exemption is really only going to be applied to specific high-risk missions... the US military is expect to have ~21% of it's aircraft ADS-B Out equipped by January 1st 2020. They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says

You omitted a critical part of this paragraph:

(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless -

(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions.

So, the VAST MAJORITY of the time the military MUST OPERATE ADS-B equipment.. Obviously, they will from time-to-time have missions requiring disabling ADS-B.
The statement WAS CORRECT!

Oh bull****. You said something that was dead wrong.

On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 8:51:19 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 8:50:24 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 7:11:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
[snip]
I spoke to an FAA avionics inspector at the Spokane FSDO about this very issue. The answer: ALL military aircraft must be in the same compliance as civilian aircraft, so they have transponders and ADS-B. I can't say whether those fighters had their transponders turned off, or my flarm didn't receive the signals. In other words, it was a FWIW.


That is not a correct statement. There are exemption for military and others for use of ADS-B Out within civilian airspace.

14 CFR 92.225 (f) (1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

...As amended earlier this year, but its been long coming/well understood the regulations were screwed up because they were missing such a clause and something was coming that would fix it. And this is in addition to what military aircraft will do in their own airspace. Military aircraft doing say stealth and ECM countermeasures work out at Fallon or Edwards within their airspace are not running around with transponders or ADS-B on.

And lest anybody think this exemption is really only going to be applied to specific high-risk missions... the US military is expect to have ~21% of it's aircraft ADS-B Out equipped by January 1st 2020. They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says

You omitted a critical part of this paragraph:

(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless -

(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions.

So, the VAST MAJORITY of the time the military MUST OPERATE ADS-B equipment. Obviously, they will from time-to-time have missions requiring disabling ADS-B.
The statement WAS CORRECT!

On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 8:57:52 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Oh bull****. You said something that was dead wrong.

On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 8:51:19 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 8:50:24 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 7:11:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
[snip]
I spoke to an FAA avionics inspector at the Spokane FSDO about this very issue. The answer: ALL military aircraft must be in the same compliance as civilian aircraft, so they have transponders and ADS-B. I can't say whether those fighters had their transponders turned off, or my flarm didn't receive the signals. In other words, it was a FWIW.


That is not a correct statement. There are exemption for military and others for use of ADS-B Out within civilian airspace.

14 CFR 92.225 (f) (1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

...As amended earlier this year, but its been long coming/well understood the regulations were screwed up because they were missing such a clause and something was coming that would fix it. And this is in addition to what military aircraft will do in their own airspace. Military aircraft doing say stealth and ECM countermeasures work out at Fallon or Edwards within their airspace are not running around with transponders or ADS-B on.

And lest anybody think this exemption is really only going to be applied to specific high-risk missions... the US military is expect to have ~21% of it's aircraft ADS-B Out equipped by January 1st 2020. They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says

You omitted a critical part of this paragraph:

(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless -

(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions.

So, the VAST MAJORITY of the time the military MUST OPERATE ADS-B equipment. Obviously, they will from time-to-time have missions requiring disabling ADS-B.
The statement WAS CORRECT!

Oh, bull**** yourself! Read the FAR before commenting!!

On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 8:51:19 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 8:50:24 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 7:11:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
[snip]
I spoke to an FAA avionics inspector at the Spokane FSDO about this very issue. The answer: ALL military aircraft must be in the same compliance as civilian aircraft, so they have transponders and ADS-B. I can't say whether those fighters had their transponders turned off, or my flarm didn't receive the signals. In other words, it was a FWIW.


That is not a correct statement. There are exemption for military and others for use of ADS-B Out within civilian airspace.

14 CFR 92.225 (f) (1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

...As amended earlier this year, but its been long coming/well understood the regulations were screwed up because they were missing such a clause and something was coming that would fix it. And this is in addition to what military aircraft will do in their own airspace. Military aircraft doing say stealth and ECM countermeasures work out at Fallon or Edwards within their airspace are not running around with transponders or ADS-B on.

And lest anybody think this exemption is really only going to be applied to specific high-risk missions... the US military is expect to have ~21% of it's aircraft ADS-B Out equipped by January 1st 2020. They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says

You omitted a critical part of this paragraph:

(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless -

(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions.

So, the VAST MAJORITY of the time the military MUST OPERATE ADS-B equipment. Obviously, they will from time-to-time have missions requiring disabling ADS-B.
The statement WAS CORRECT!

I'm curious as to how "the VAST MAJORITY of the time" they will be operating ADS-B out equipment when in the vast majority of aircraft this equipment is not installed?

On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 8:29:06 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 8:51:19 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 8:50:24 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 7:11:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
[snip]
I spoke to an FAA avionics inspector at the Spokane FSDO about this very issue. The answer: ALL military aircraft must be in the same compliance as civilian aircraft, so they have transponders and ADS-B. I can't say whether those fighters had their transponders turned off, or my flarm didn't receive the signals. In other words, it was a FWIW.


That is not a correct statement. There are exemption for military and others for use of ADS-B Out within civilian airspace.

14 CFR 92.225 (f) (1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

...As amended earlier this year, but its been long coming/well understood the regulations were screwed up because they were missing such a clause and something was coming that would fix it. And this is in addition to what military aircraft will do in their own airspace. Military aircraft doing say stealth and ECM countermeasures work out at Fallon or Edwards within their airspace are not running around with transponders or ADS-B on.

And lest anybody think this exemption is really only going to be applied to specific high-risk missions... the US military is expect to have ~21% of it's aircraft ADS-B Out equipped by January 1st 2020. They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says

You omitted a critical part of this paragraph:

(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless -

(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions.

So, the VAST MAJORITY of the time the military MUST OPERATE ADS-B equipment. Obviously, they will from time-to-time have missions requiring disabling ADS-B.
The statement WAS CORRECT!

I'm curious as to how "the VAST MAJORITY of the time" they will be operating ADS-B out equipment when in the vast majority of aircraft this equipment is not installed?

You of all people should know that. "reality distortion field".

On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 1:57:45 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 8:29:06 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 8:51:19 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 8:50:24 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 7:11:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
[snip]
I spoke to an FAA avionics inspector at the Spokane FSDO about this very issue. The answer: ALL military aircraft must be in the same compliance as civilian aircraft, so they have transponders and ADS-B. I can't say whether those fighters had their transponders turned off, or my flarm didn't receive the signals. In other words, it was a FWIW.


That is not a correct statement. There are exemption for military and others for use of ADS-B Out within civilian airspace.

14 CFR 92.225 (f) (1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

...As amended earlier this year, but its been long coming/well understood the regulations were screwed up because they were missing such a clause and something was coming that would fix it. And this is in addition to what military aircraft will do in their own airspace. Military aircraft doing say stealth and ECM countermeasures work out at Fallon or Edwards within their airspace are not running around with transponders or ADS-B on.

And lest anybody think this exemption is really only going to be applied to specific high-risk missions... the US military is expect to have ~21% of it's aircraft ADS-B Out equipped by January 1st 2020. They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says

You omitted a critical part of this paragraph:

(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless -

(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions.

So, the VAST MAJORITY of the time the military MUST OPERATE ADS-B equipment. Obviously, they will from time-to-time have missions requiring disabling ADS-B.
The statement WAS CORRECT!

I'm curious as to how "the VAST MAJORITY of the time" they will be operating ADS-B out equipment when in the vast majority of aircraft this equipment is not installed?

You of all people should know that. "reality distortion field".

Jonathan, that's where the Everettian "Many Worlds" interpretation of quantum mechanics makes it's powerful contribution. There will most definitely be worlds where all military aircraft transmit ADS-B all the time.

They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says

So, if I read this article correctly, 2/3 of fighters aren't scheduled to get ADS-B Out until after 2025. Therefore, I should not assume I'm going to see on my traffic display much of the type of traffic you'd expect to have in a MOA for quite some time. Even thereafter many military aircraft may be flying with ADS-B turned off under exemption since (one might speculate) the typical combat avionics settings wouldn't broadcast GPS locations for the bad guys to track.

Any word on what military drones flying in MOAs will be equipped with?

Andy Blackburn
9B

On Wednesday, October 9, 2019 at 9:17:54 AM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says

So, if I read this article correctly, 2/3 of fighters aren't scheduled to get ADS-B Out until after 2025. Therefore, I should not assume I'm going to see on my traffic display much of the type of traffic you'd expect to have in a MOA for quite some time. Even thereafter many military aircraft may be flying with ADS-B turned off under exemption since (one might speculate) the typical combat avionics settings wouldn't broadcast GPS locations for the bad guys to track.

Any word on what military drones flying in MOAs will be equipped with?

Andy Blackburn
9B

I don't think I've ever seen a military aircraft on my traffic display. Whether because they don't have the equipment, or it was turned off I don't know. On the other hand, I never see a Southwest 737 either - according to news stories only their 14 737 MAXs are ADS-B equipped, and those are on the ground. The difference is Southwest is controlled traffic and the stuff zipping around an MOA isn't.

We've often said that we (sailplanes) are only one mid-air away from required transponders. We are similarly one mid-air away from these MOAs becoming restricted airspace.

On Wednesday, October 9, 2019 at 10:49:10 AM UTC-6, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, October 9, 2019 at 9:17:54 AM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says

So, if I read this article correctly, 2/3 of fighters aren't scheduled to get ADS-B Out until after 2025. Therefore, I should not assume I'm going to see on my traffic display much of the type of traffic you'd expect to have in a MOA for quite some time. Even thereafter many military aircraft may be flying with ADS-B turned off under exemption since (one might speculate) the typical combat avionics settings wouldn't broadcast GPS locations for the bad guys to track.

Any word on what military drones flying in MOAs will be equipped with?

Andy Blackburn
9B

I don't think I've ever seen a military aircraft on my traffic display. Whether because they don't have the equipment, or it was turned off I don't know. On the other hand, I never see a Southwest 737 either - according to news stories only their 14 737 MAXs are ADS-B equipped, and those are on the ground. The difference is Southwest is controlled traffic and the stuff zipping around an MOA isn't.

We've often said that we (sailplanes) are only one mid-air away from required transponders. We are similarly one mid-air away from these MOAs becoming restricted airspace.

For a pre-flight start I check.....https://sua.faa.gov/sua/siteFrame.app..... then call and check as to where we fly has moas and restricted airspace.

Here's a good read.....https://aviation.stackexchange.com/q...ircraft-around

But here's a brief copy.....

Military aircraft do have transponders that can reply to civil ATC radar and TCAS interrogations. Normally military aircraft operating in civil airspace are visible to civilian ATC and also will trigger TCAS advisories and alerts if they are getting close to airliners.

During wartime operations, and sometimes during combat practice in dedicated airspace, the transponder is operated in a different mode and will not be replying to civil radar interrogations.

Typically when operating in civil airspace, military aircraft will fly under the civil regulations for that airspace. Training flights are usually conducted in dedicated airspace under military traffic control.

In some cases, the military ATC assumes responsibility over military aircraft in otherwise civil ATC controlled airspace. In such a case the military ATC will be responsible for the separation between the military aircraft themselves and between military and civilian aircraft.

In other cases, military aircraft may be allowed to maintain their separation from each other on their own, without civil ATC interfering in their operations. This allows for operations where military aircraft flying close to each other like formation flying and aerial refueling outside the dedicated military airspace. In the USA these operations are called MARSA (Military Assumes Responsibility for Separation of Aircraft). Civil ATC is responsible for keeping Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) aircraft separated from MARSA operations. Visual Flight Rules (VFR) pilots have to maintain separation visually from MARSA flights and vice-versa. If VFR pilots are in contact with ATC they will be advised of ongoing military operations.

Thier's more so that's why for the link.

Best. Tom #711.