New MOAs proposed near Marine Corp base and Mt Patterson

On Wednesday, October 9, 2019 at 9:17:54 AM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says

So, if I read this article correctly, 2/3 of fighters aren't scheduled to get ADS-B Out until after 2025. Therefore, I should not assume I'm going to see on my traffic display much of the type of traffic you'd expect to have in a MOA for quite some time. Even thereafter many military aircraft may be flying with ADS-B turned off under exemption since (one might speculate) the typical combat avionics settings wouldn't broadcast GPS locations for the bad guys to track.

Any word on what military drones flying in MOAs will be equipped with?

Andy Blackburn
9B

I don't think I've ever seen a military aircraft on my traffic display. Whether because they don't have the equipment, or it was turned off I don't know. On the other hand, I never see a Southwest 737 either - according to news stories only their 14 737 MAXs are ADS-B equipped, and those are on the ground. The difference is Southwest is controlled traffic and the stuff zipping around an MOA isn't.

We've often said that we (sailplanes) are only one mid-air away from required transponders. We are similarly one mid-air away from these MOAs becoming restricted airspace.

On Wednesday, October 9, 2019 at 10:49:10 AM UTC-6, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, October 9, 2019 at 9:17:54 AM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says

So, if I read this article correctly, 2/3 of fighters aren't scheduled to get ADS-B Out until after 2025. Therefore, I should not assume I'm going to see on my traffic display much of the type of traffic you'd expect to have in a MOA for quite some time. Even thereafter many military aircraft may be flying with ADS-B turned off under exemption since (one might speculate) the typical combat avionics settings wouldn't broadcast GPS locations for the bad guys to track.

Any word on what military drones flying in MOAs will be equipped with?

Andy Blackburn
9B

I don't think I've ever seen a military aircraft on my traffic display. Whether because they don't have the equipment, or it was turned off I don't know. On the other hand, I never see a Southwest 737 either - according to news stories only their 14 737 MAXs are ADS-B equipped, and those are on the ground. The difference is Southwest is controlled traffic and the stuff zipping around an MOA isn't.

We've often said that we (sailplanes) are only one mid-air away from required transponders. We are similarly one mid-air away from these MOAs becoming restricted airspace.

For a pre-flight start I check.....https://sua.faa.gov/sua/siteFrame.app..... then call and check as to where we fly has moas and restricted airspace.

Here's a good read.....https://aviation.stackexchange.com/q...ircraft-around

But here's a brief copy.....

Military aircraft do have transponders that can reply to civil ATC radar and TCAS interrogations. Normally military aircraft operating in civil airspace are visible to civilian ATC and also will trigger TCAS advisories and alerts if they are getting close to airliners.

During wartime operations, and sometimes during combat practice in dedicated airspace, the transponder is operated in a different mode and will not be replying to civil radar interrogations.

Typically when operating in civil airspace, military aircraft will fly under the civil regulations for that airspace. Training flights are usually conducted in dedicated airspace under military traffic control.

In some cases, the military ATC assumes responsibility over military aircraft in otherwise civil ATC controlled airspace. In such a case the military ATC will be responsible for the separation between the military aircraft themselves and between military and civilian aircraft.

In other cases, military aircraft may be allowed to maintain their separation from each other on their own, without civil ATC interfering in their operations. This allows for operations where military aircraft flying close to each other like formation flying and aerial refueling outside the dedicated military airspace. In the USA these operations are called MARSA (Military Assumes Responsibility for Separation of Aircraft). Civil ATC is responsible for keeping Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) aircraft separated from MARSA operations. Visual Flight Rules (VFR) pilots have to maintain separation visually from MARSA flights and vice-versa. If VFR pilots are in contact with ATC they will be advised of ongoing military operations.

Thier's more so that's why for the link.

Best. Tom #711.

I suspect that information on only Southwest 737 Max having ADS-B Out may be out of date. Southwest announced a program a couple of years ago to equip (part of?) their 737-NG fleet with ADS-B Out. They made points how they were struggling with previous non-availability of suitable approved/integrated components, .. and I also suspect cost. I have no idea how far that program has moved. I do see some Southwest 737 flying around on Flightaware right now with the source showing as to "Flightaware ADS-B" (not say a FAA facility name, or not "Flightaware MLAT"--which would usually indicate a transponder only target). I'll try to do some counting of Southwest traffic stats on my ADS-B receiver in the Bay Area.

Ah the irony that the ADS-B Out effort, the foundation of the FAA Nextgen program, largely designed to benefit the airlines, has airlines struggling to try to equip ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Are you seeing other 1090ES Out equipped traffic including airliners reliably? Should be able to see them at ~40+ NM on a PowerFLARM if not it would be good to check out what is going on.

---

As for what equipment drones are carrying, I think it's important not to guess. Do we have and idea if drones will be operating much in this MOA -- they were not mentioned at all in what seemed a detailed list of other aircraft. But OTOH I would be disappointed from a training viewpoint if the marines say don't sometimes utilize the 16' wingspan Blackjack drones in training there. Being able to operate those in mountainous regions seems pretty important.

Again I'd hope that it organizations are commenting on this MOA, that they try to find out what surveillance and collision avoidance technology and practices the military intend to use. USN bases like Fallon don't seem to have the same high-external visibility MACA (mid-air collision avoidance) programs that USAF bases have. The USAF MACA contacts I've spoken with have all been pretty responsive, may be good to find the equivalent at Fallon if it exists.


On Wednesday, October 9, 2019 at 9:49:10 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, October 9, 2019 at 9:17:54 AM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says

So, if I read this article correctly, 2/3 of fighters aren't scheduled to get ADS-B Out until after 2025. Therefore, I should not assume I'm going to see on my traffic display much of the type of traffic you'd expect to have in a MOA for quite some time. Even thereafter many military aircraft may be flying with ADS-B turned off under exemption since (one might speculate) the typical combat avionics settings wouldn't broadcast GPS locations for the bad guys to track.

Any word on what military drones flying in MOAs will be equipped with?

Andy Blackburn
9B

I don't think I've ever seen a military aircraft on my traffic display. Whether because they don't have the equipment, or it was turned off I don't know. On the other hand, I never see a Southwest 737 either - according to news stories only their 14 737 MAXs are ADS-B equipped, and those are on the ground. The difference is Southwest is controlled traffic and the stuff zipping around an MOA isn't.

We've often said that we (sailplanes) are only one mid-air away from required transponders. We are similarly one mid-air away from these MOAs becoming restricted airspace.

I suggest contacting Joshua ATC Control at Edwards AFB. They have been and still are a valuable resource for high altitude wave flights in the Sierra Nevada. And Naval Air Weapons Station China Lake is just down the "block" at Ridgecrest, CA. (Near Inyokern) They obviously have deconfliction procedures in use.

Darryl Ramm wrote on 10/9/2019 12:26 PM:
I'll try to do some counting of Southwest traffic stats on my ADS-B receiver in the Bay Area.

My Phoenix has a Dynon Skyview EFIS with ADS-B in/out. Is there anyway to tell the
target is a military aircraft? Same question for the Powerflarm in my ASH 26 E -
can I determine a target is a military aircraft (I have the simple rectangular
display that just shows little triangles)?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Can you get info on the targets?

In my Stemme and C-180 I have many different displays.Â* I can usually
get information which includes ICAO code (least informative), airline
flight number (not military), and N-number (also not military).Â* By
simple elimination one might assume the ICAO only code might be
military.Â* But you know about ass-u-me...

On 10/10/2019 10:58 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Darryl Ramm wrote on 10/9/2019 12:26 PM:
Â* I'll try to do some counting of Southwest traffic stats on my ADS-B
receiver in the Bay Area.

My Phoenix has a Dynon Skyview EFIS with ADS-B in/out. Is there anyway
to tell the target is a military aircraft? Same question for the
Powerflarm in my ASH 26 E - can I determine a target is a military
aircraft (I have the simple rectangular display that just shows little
triangles)?


--
Dan, 5J

On Thursday, October 10, 2019 at 10:35:56 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Can you get info on the targets?

In my Stemme and C-180 I have many different displays.Â* I can usually
get information which includes ICAO code (least informative), airline
flight number (not military), and N-number (also not military).Â* By
simple elimination one might assume the ICAO only code might be
military.Â* But you know about ass-u-me...

On 10/10/2019 10:58 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Darryl Ramm wrote on 10/9/2019 12:26 PM:
Â* I'll try to do some counting of Southwest traffic stats on my ADS-B
receiver in the Bay Area.

My Phoenix has a Dynon Skyview EFIS with ADS-B in/out. Is there anyway
to tell the target is a military aircraft? Same question for the
Powerflarm in my ASH 26 E - can I determine a target is a military
aircraft (I have the simple rectangular display that just shows little
triangles)?


--
Dan, 5J

It's good to assume assuming is not always good. :-)

The formal identification data available via ADS-B (either UAT or 109ES) is

ICAO ID
Ident Characters (8 characters): The Flight Number or N-Number (targets don't transmit both).

You can also see any assigned squawk code and if the ident button has been recently pressed.

The ICAO ID can be super telling *if* you have access to the correct registration and/ or past observation databases, meaning typically on the ground connected to a computer. Just knowing if the ICAO address fits within a military reserved block may tell you if this is a military aircraft. That's the primary technique used to identify military traffic in this intersting paper on Military and State aircraft ADS-B traffic: https://opensky-network.org/files/pu...ons/dasc17.pdf In Europe disabling ADS-B Out for those aircraft has been a hot-topic of discussion.

There is a lot of other *potentially* telling information broadcast via ADS-B, e.g."emitter category" (e.g. heavy aircraft based in MTOW, light aircraft, sailplane, ... while nothing there says "military" directly the emitter category being say UAV or Highly Maneuverable ( 5 G and 400 TAS) could clue you in in some cases, wingspan and length (transmitted only on the ground), If it is 1090ES In or UAT In equipped, if it has TCAS, you can possibly tell something about how sophisticated it's avionics etc. e.g. wether transmitting GPS referenced velocity or/or air-referenced velocity, GPS altitude as well as pressure altitude, track data, etc. things there could make it possible to guess the level of sophistication and/or build up additional signatures to identify aircraft types.

Many airborne/end-user traffic systems don't display all this information, but it's all visible in open data to folks with the right tools, and/or a little programming skills--I modified dump1090 for example to gives me anything I want. I was going to show off some of that data, including watching some live ADS-R and TIS-B traffic processing, at the upcoming PASCO seminar.... but the seminar location has maybe the worst ADS-B tower ground coverage in SF Bay Area :-(

There can also be some extra data transmitted via Mode-S *without* ADS-B being involved that could also help give data on sophistication/capabilities of the aircraft. A TT21/22 in a glider can't do this, but sophisticated Mode-S transponder systems, (*independent* of ADS-B Out) can potentially transmit heading, track, roll rate, ground speed, airspeed, or FMS altitude select. etc. All possibly more fingerprinting clues.

I have a lot of empathy for the military operators here, ADS-B is a very surprising system, implemented with no fundamental encryption/authentication/security mechanisms. That's part of the publicly documented military concerns, it must be very strange for those military folks living in a modern IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) world, many of who recently upgraded to Mode 5 and are dealing with secure Mode 5 key provisioning etc. and then see this ball of unsecure/unauthenticated/wide open tangled string the FAA expects them to adopt.

On Thursday, October 10, 2019 at 9:59:01 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Darryl Ramm wrote on 10/9/2019 12:26 PM:
I'll try to do some counting of Southwest traffic stats on my ADS-B receiver in the Bay Area.

My Phoenix has a Dynon Skyview EFIS with ADS-B in/out. Is there anyway to tell the
target is a military aircraft? Same question for the Powerflarm in my ASH 26 E -
can I determine a target is a military aircraft (I have the simple rectangular
display that just shows little triangles)?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
The way I tell they are military is: if they look very much like an F16 or F18, and flying in formation below me, then I conclude they are military. Or If it looks a lot like a C5A. Seen both of those a few times up pretty close, and they never appear on any display. A lot of airliners, and most biz jets appear without fail. 2G thinks all these aircraft will be grounded come Jan 1, but somehow I doubt that.

I don't think I've ever seen a military aircraft on my traffic display.

Mostly agree, including this summer right over Swee****er with 2 F-18s southbound. Have never seen them there before but they did not register as either xpndr or ADSB. The only time I ever saw military fighter register with xpndr was an F-15 with amazingly high closure rate over Lake Tahoe. Likely out of Klamath. It was weird to see the distance in nautical miles decrease at such a rate. There was also a drone near Amadee once cruising at 18k. It seemed to have a xpndr but was much slower. This year various SW airline 737s registered on my ADSB so they seem to be getting equipped.
Darren