2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

"I've somehow managed to survive all of my competition years so far
without meeting an untimely end. That includes a good number of
landouts in the early years which, would you believe with decent
training and without an unfounded and inflated percetion of risk
were carried out incident free."

"I put this revolver to my head, pulled the trigger 3 times and it hasn't gone off yet. It must be safe"

I thought we in aviation got rid of this sort of thinking about safety a long time ago. Two words: selection bias.

I read Sailplane and Gliding, the wonderful UK publication. The incident reports in the back of the magazine are full of landout damage, much of it in contests.

I would be curious whether the fraction of UK pilots who fly contests is any greater than the number in the US. My impression from S&G is an active contest scene, like the east coast of the US -- and a whole lot of pilots who do not touch the stuff.

John Cochrane

FAI Annex A rules (which are undergoing massive change) do not drive pilots to land out. Many WGCs and EGCs are run in eastern Europe and gliding/competition culture there is different. It is common to set task to sky that is totally dead. First turnpoint or even start point in steady rain? No problem, just go. And then we have 130 outlandings.

We have run nationals using Annex A for decades with very little problem of outlandings. Usually AAT is set on trickier days and if it's raining, we do not feel obliged to fly.

It is very convenient to blame rulebook for bad task setting.

I should add that proposed scoring change to Annex A (by USA) creates MASSIVE incentive to scratch home over the last trees and creates a huge outlanding risk. If I'm not wrong the same people here complaining the risk level introduced by Annex A rules actually drafted that proposal.

At 07:14 30 October 2019, krasw wrote:

I should add that proposed scoring change to Annex A (by USA) creates
MASSIVE incentive to scratch home over the last trees and creates a huge
out landing risk.

There is already a strong incentive to scratch home and pretty much
everyone I fly against in the UK 15s would do so anyway. I like the
proposal as it simplifies the scoring rules.

Sensible pilots will choose a flat landable field before the line that can
be used safely if they cannot make the hedge. In circumstances where there
is a finish ring the decision to land will probably be made higher and with
reduced risk.

Landing out is a integral part of competition flying in gliders. We train
for it and do it regularly. If you fly a motor glider (dig) then you
probably are less current and more at risk when the engine doesn't behave.

Jim

On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 12:15:07 PM UTC+2, Jim White wrote:
At 07:14 30 October 2019, krasw wrote:

I should add that proposed scoring change to Annex A (by USA) creates
MASSIVE incentive to scratch home over the last trees and creates a huge
out landing risk.

There is already a strong incentive to scratch home and pretty much
everyone I fly against in the UK 15s would do so anyway. I like the
proposal as it simplifies the scoring rules.

Sensible pilots will choose a flat landable field before the line that can
be used safely if they cannot make the hedge. In circumstances where there
is a finish ring the decision to land will probably be made higher and with
reduced risk.

Landing out is a integral part of competition flying in gliders. We train
for it and do it regularly. If you fly a motor glider (dig) then you
probably are less current and more at risk when the engine doesn't behave..

Jim

If you are the one out of 50 pilots who gets home and others land out on the last field next to finish line, current scoring gives you maybe ten point spread over pilots landing out. Proposed scoring would increase this to 250 points (devaluation scheme applies to both, depending on the day). In my opinion the incentive is not the same.

On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 8:55:15 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 12:15:07 PM UTC+2, Jim White wrote:
At 07:14 30 October 2019, krasw wrote:

I should add that proposed scoring change to Annex A (by USA) creates
MASSIVE incentive to scratch home over the last trees and creates a huge
out landing risk.

There is already a strong incentive to scratch home and pretty much
everyone I fly against in the UK 15s would do so anyway. I like the
proposal as it simplifies the scoring rules.

Sensible pilots will choose a flat landable field before the line that can
be used safely if they cannot make the hedge. In circumstances where there
is a finish ring the decision to land will probably be made higher and with
reduced risk.

Landing out is a integral part of competition flying in gliders. We train
for it and do it regularly. If you fly a motor glider (dig) then you
probably are less current and more at risk when the engine doesn't behave.

Jim

If you are the one out of 50 pilots who gets home and others land out on the last field next to finish line, current scoring gives you maybe ten point spread over pilots landing out. Proposed scoring would increase this to 250 points (devaluation scheme applies to both, depending on the day). In my opinion the incentive is not the same.

Provides incentive to fly your own race, yes. That's a good thing.

T8

Or skip that last good field or airport to try and cross the finish for that 250 pt incentive...

There are going to be pros and cons to every situation. I think we should expect competition directors to set a fair and reasonable task based on current weather and from that point it should be up to the pilot in command to make their decision from that point on. Soaring is not the safest sport out there but is comparable to motorcycles. If you respect it, your safety and that of those involved goes up significantly compared to the guy flying by at 120 mph without a helmet.

The majority of pilots again voted to begin implementing FAI rules at US Nationals and I don’t see any increased risk having flown both versions.

On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 1:19:27 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Or skip that last good field or airport to try and cross the finish for that 250 pt incentive...

....which is why there is something to be said for a sane minimum finish height.

T8

On Wednesday, 30 October 2019 15:40:58 UTC+1, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 8:55:15 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 12:15:07 PM UTC+2, Jim White wrote:
At 07:14 30 October 2019, krasw wrote:

I should add that proposed scoring change to Annex A (by USA) creates
MASSIVE incentive to scratch home over the last trees and creates a huge
out landing risk.

There is already a strong incentive to scratch home and pretty much
everyone I fly against in the UK 15s would do so anyway. I like the
proposal as it simplifies the scoring rules.

Sensible pilots will choose a flat landable field before the line that can
be used safely if they cannot make the hedge. In circumstances where there
is a finish ring the decision to land will probably be made higher and with
reduced risk.

Landing out is a integral part of competition flying in gliders. We train
for it and do it regularly. If you fly a motor glider (dig) then you
probably are less current and more at risk when the engine doesn't behave.

Jim

If you are the one out of 50 pilots who gets home and others land out on the last field next to finish line, current scoring gives you maybe ten point spread over pilots landing out. Proposed scoring would increase this to 250 points (devaluation scheme applies to both, depending on the day). In my opinion the incentive is not the same.

Provides incentive to fly your own race, yes. That's a good thing.

T8

Ok, picture this. Weather is weak dry thermals to 2000ft. You have a long task to fly. The pilot who gets home collects the 250p award. There is 50 pilots flying the same task in ****ty weather. And your tactic would be "to fly your own race"?

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 2:19:51 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
On Wednesday, 30 October 2019 15:40:58 UTC+1, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 8:55:15 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 12:15:07 PM UTC+2, Jim White wrote:
At 07:14 30 October 2019, krasw wrote:

I should add that proposed scoring change to Annex A (by USA) creates
MASSIVE incentive to scratch home over the last trees and creates a huge
out landing risk.

There is already a strong incentive to scratch home and pretty much
everyone I fly against in the UK 15s would do so anyway. I like the
proposal as it simplifies the scoring rules.

Sensible pilots will choose a flat landable field before the line that can
be used safely if they cannot make the hedge. In circumstances where there
is a finish ring the decision to land will probably be made higher and with
reduced risk.

Landing out is a integral part of competition flying in gliders. We train
for it and do it regularly. If you fly a motor glider (dig) then you
probably are less current and more at risk when the engine doesn't behave.

Jim

If you are the one out of 50 pilots who gets home and others land out on the last field next to finish line, current scoring gives you maybe ten point spread over pilots landing out. Proposed scoring would increase this to 250 points (devaluation scheme applies to both, depending on the day). In my opinion the incentive is not the same.

Provides incentive to fly your own race, yes. That's a good thing.

T8

Ok, picture this. Weather is weak dry thermals to 2000ft. You have a long task to fly. The pilot who gets home collects the 250p award. There is 50 pilots flying the same task in ****ty weather. And your tactic would be "to fly your own race"?

In USA, we will not launch if the top of lift is 2000'.

T8

Hi John,

Thanks for the response. I'm not really looking to get involved but I
suppose I must respond as I believe fear mongering around landouts
may account for part of the US reluctance to progress and people
need to see both sides of the argument, not just the opinion of one
or two stubborn individuals whenever someone mentions change.

Of course it's not completely safe. Very few aviation activities are.
I'm sure you yourself have completed many takeoffs and landings
safely, yet accidents happen there too. Do we blame the takeoffs
and landings? should we find a way of reducing them? Maybe golf?

No wonder there is apprehension around the topic when we have
people comparing landing out to putting a revolver to ones head. If
we were to use that analogy though I would point out that I've been
trained not to put any rounds in it. I'd have a hard time getting hold
of one though, here in the UK we just wave our fists at one another.

A good example of selection bias would be noting that a community
that lands out extremely regularly does have accidents now and
then, and deducing from this data that the chances of an accident
are high despite knowing only the final output figure.

I might add, by far the most field retrieves I see happen during the
course of normal club flying, rather than at contests. I wonder what
rules are driving these non competitors to landout?..



At 23:48 29 October 2019, John Cochrane wrote:
"I've somehow managed to survive all of my competition years so
far
without meeting an untimely end. That includes a good number of
landouts in the early years which, would you believe with decent
training and without an unfounded and inflated percetion of risk
were carried out incident free."

"I put this revolver to my head, pulled the trigger 3 times and it
hasn't
gone off yet. It must be safe"

I thought we in aviation got rid of this sort of thinking about safety
a
long time ago. Two words: selection bias.

I read Sailplane and Gliding, the wonderful UK publication. The
incident
reports in the back of the magazine are full of landout damage,
much of it
in contests.

I would be curious whether the fraction of UK pilots who fly
contests is
any greater than the number in the US. My impression from S&G is
an active
contest scene, like the east coast of the US -- and a whole lot of
pilots
who do not touch the stuff.

John Cochrane