Gliding risk....

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 11:24:12 AM UTC-8, wrote:
With apologies for lack of context:
This is one of the DUMBEST threads I have followed

Not dumb. Thought provoking. Anyone who hasn't considered the risks of soaring is in denial.

I grew up hearing my father repeat the mantra that "the most dangerous part of soaring is driving to and from the airport." He was killed in a glider crash 15 years after I soloed. Six years later, my best friend died in another crash. I’ve known 16 other casualties, plus more I never met. Last Friday, I attended the wake of #18, a good pilot about my age who was careful and controlled.

I'm SO past the "he died doing what he loved" thing. It's probably true in many cases but the pilots are still dead, leaving families and friends. And if a missing man formation makes you feel better, great, but it does nothing to bring back someone you loved or treasured as a friend.

I also knew two guys who were killed in motorcycle crashes during this time (54 years), although I have no idea how many of my friends/acquaintances ride vs. fly. I recall only one person I met who was killed in a car crash.. I think comparing the risks of different activities is useful. But obviously we're not all making decisions based on minimizing risk.

There are ways to reduce the risk even in competition, which I think is probably riskier than doing rides around the gliderport. Eight of "my" 18 died at contests (44%) with another five arguably practicing for it. All were experienced, mature, high-time pilots. Medical factors may have been a factor in at least four cases but often it’s tough to make that call, although sometimes we’re tempted because it makes us feel better about the genuine risks we incur.

The safest thing is not flying at all. I’ve considered that. I’ve been away from soaring three times for multi-year periods (unrelated to risk) and come back every time after considering the pro’s and con’s. I still love soaring but the risk is always there. I’ve never been cavalier about the danger but I’m probably more careful now than I was 50 years ago. I think our community addresses safety much better than in the past. But--I concede that if soaring were 100% risk free (a la Condor, which I enjoy), it wouldn’t be as compelling. Cognitive dissonance is a wonderful thing!

Chip Bearden
JB

Chip,

That would be nice if that was the intent of this thread, but it isn't. It is entirely about making you feel anxious about flying. I don't particularly care whether flying is more or less dangerous than motorcycle riding because I don't ride motorcycles. And, even if I did, how would that make me be a safer pilot? I gave up flying in site contests (OLC is different) because I was almost killed in one, and decided the benefit didn't justify the risk. Some pilots become very aggressive while flying in a contest.

Tom

On Thursday, November 7, 2019 at 10:22:48 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

That would be nice if that was the intent of this thread, but it isn't. It is entirely about making you feel anxious about flying. I don't particularly care whether flying is more or less dangerous than motorcycle riding because I don't ride motorcycles. And, even if I did, how would that make me be a safer pilot? I gave up flying in site contests (OLC is different) because I was almost killed in one, and decided the benefit didn't justify the risk. Some pilots become very aggressive while flying in a contest.

Tom

Tom,

I wouldn't ordinarily get involved in tussling with you on something like this but since I used one of your posts as my entree, I'll make an exception..

None of us really knows what the true intent of the thread was because we're not the original poster. But the way I read it, he had two points. First, people tend to ignore the risks of things they want to do so they won't stress about them. Second, the risks of soaring are higher than many of us want to admit.

It doesn't necessarily follow that the OP wanted us to "feel anxious about flying." That's your interpretation. I like to think he wanted us to make intelligent, reasoned choices based on the facts. This thread has helped in that regard. "Anxious" is defined as "experiencing worry, unease, or nervousness." Yup. I'm nervous at times when I fly. Sometimes I'm uneasy. I never take flying for granted. I still fly because I love it even though I know it's more risky than flying Condor or driving to the theater.

It's often easier for us to understand risk using benchmarks and comparisons. As many have said, the least risky thing is to stay home--but even that's not risk-free. Comparing the risk of soaring to other activities and to simply getting older can help us understand and weigh the risk of flying. That's useful.

I disagree that understanding the risks of soaring won't make us better pilots. Knowing I could get killed any number of ways in a glider has helped me be a safer pilot. The risks I'm willing to tolerate might be different than for other pilots and certainly non-pilots.

For example, you've chosen to restrict yourself to certain types of soaring based on your personal knowledge of the risks of contest flying. If you did fly a contest, I suspect you'd be anxious. If someone approached me about flying their first contest, I'd want them to understand the risks, which I agree are higher than just flying cross country and certainly higher than doing rides around the airport.

Chip Bearden
JB

Chip
I heard a really useful axiom awhile back. It was in an interview of one of the founding engineers of the X-plane/X15 program. When questioned about the differences between the approach they took during those heated-space/aviation race days of the cold war and the more cerebral go slow pace of later test flying. This guy called what they did earlier as “Educated Courage�, meaning, yes they were involved in risky business but they entered those risks thoughtfully with preparation and built in contingencies.

It does take a level of courage needed in the pursuit of certain goals, in our case that being xc or contest flying. Without courage and just operating from “thoughtfulness� and a guy could consider venturing off anywhere beyond gliding distance of home as foolhardy. Or flying in a gaggle with 10 other guys all flying within a few hundred feet of each other sounds like a recipe for trouble. But when thoughtful preparation, common sense precautions and contingencies are joined up with a measure of courage, great things, enjoyment, and accomplishment can result.

I have gone thru my big dollar high performance phase of soaring, but have jumped into a different pond of challenge, namely, trying to do great things in low performance machines. In order to do this, I have to ask things of my bird and my own abilities way beyond the norm, not having the L/D to get me free of trouble areas etc. As a result, it takes gobbs of courage, just ask Daniel Sazhin or Ron Schwartz who ran the ridges in their
1-26’s to put up some of the first few 1000k 1-26 flights. Without courage they could never have even gotten started.
But given the need for courage, what comes along with it is the need for a whole bunch of Thoughtfulness. Read study, knowledge gained from numerous failed attempts, having well defined and adhered-to personal minimums. I spend way more energy and flight time working on the skills needed to safely stretch into this challenging low performance flying than I do one the record attempts. In my case it involves lots and lots of low level and weak wx flying, and very short small off field landing simulation. This is all done to perfect and sharpen my skills, skills that are essential for reaching my goals. In three years of pursuing low performance records, I have made over 20 off field landings. Not airports or grass strips, but actual farm fields, roads, unoccupied parking lots etc. Have I learned things? Absolutely. Was I ever scared, absolutely not. Concerned? Yes, but never fearing for life or limb. In it all I have not hurt my bird in any way, a few scraps on the fusalage bottom is all.

Put the package together and you can have success without falling either into the “chicken little� syndrome or the other end of the spectrum, namely foolhardy confidence.

FWIW
Dan

On 11/8/2019 3:18 PM, wrote:
...I heard a really useful axiom awhile back. It was in an interview of
one of the founding engineers of the X-plane/X15 program. When questioned
about the differences between the approach they took during those
heated-space/aviation race days of the cold war and the more cerebral go
slow pace of later test flying. This guy called what they did earlier as
“Educated Courage�, meaning, yes they were involved in risky business but
they entered those risks thoughtfully with preparation and built in
contingencies.

It does take a level of courage needed in the pursuit of certain goals, in
our case that being xc or contest flying. Without courage and just
operating from “thoughtfulness� and a guy could consider venturing off
anywhere beyond gliding distance of home as foolhardy. Or flying in a
gaggle with 10 other guys all flying within a few hundred feet of each
other sounds like a recipe for trouble. But when thoughtful preparation,
common sense precautions and contingencies are joined up with a measure of
courage, great things, enjoyment, and accomplishment can result.

I have gone thru my big dollar high performance phase of soaring, but have
jumped into a different pond of challenge, namely, trying to do great
things in low performance machines. In order to do this, I have to ask
things of my bird and my own abilities way beyond the norm, not having the
L/D to get me free of trouble areas etc. As a result, it takes gobbs of
courage, just ask Daniel Sazhin or Ron Schwartz who ran the ridges in
their 1-26’s to put up some of the first few 1000k 1-26 flights. Without
courage they could never have even gotten started. But given the need for
courage, what comes along with it is the need for a whole bunch of
Thoughtfulness. Read study, knowledge gained from numerous failed attempts,
having well defined and adhered-to personal minimums. I spend way more
energy and flight time working on the skills needed to safely stretch into
this challenging low performance flying than I do one the record attempts.
In my case it involves lots and lots of low level and weak wx flying, and
very short small off field landing simulation. This is all done to perfect
and sharpen my skills, skills that are essential for reaching my goals. In
three years of pursuing low performance records, I have made over 20 off
field landings. Not airports or grass strips, but actual farm fields,
roads, unoccupied parking lots etc. Have I learned things? Absolutely. Was
I ever scared, absolutely not. Concerned? Yes, but never fearing for life
or limb. In it all I have not hurt my bird in any way, a few scraps on the
fusalage bottom is all.

Put the package together and you can have success without falling either
into the “chicken little� syndrome or the other end of the spectrum, namely
foolhardy confidence.

FWIW Dan

"I'm with Dan, here" (and, e.g., his reference to Daniel Sazhin and *his*
similarly nuanced posts and "Soaring" mag articles).

Never met "FWIW Dan", but the mental (and practical/physical) approaches he
tries to convey in his posts "work for me." Like him, I've only scared myself
once while indulging in this wonderul sport - it had zero to do with an
imminent landing - though there *were* (rare, entirely self-inflicted) times
when the possibility of an imminent outlanding had all my focusable senses at
what-then-seemed-to-me highest-possible-alert. That noted, I never actually
had to make a "100%-on-my-/ship-limits" off-field landing...though that one
time I seriously thought I might have to surely burned itself into my mind.

Some posters seem eager to disagree with Dan's posted words, and there
unquestionably are certain things associated with the sport 100% of us should
*never* do. Experience an uncommanded departure from controlled flight in the
landing pattern immediately springs to mind, here.

That noted, much, if not most, of the sport screams for nuanced thought, and
not rarely, nuanced practices. Seems to me that this is what Dan is attempting
to convey in many of his posts. If his posts don't "work for you," by all
means ignore his advice. But if you're able to "get a glimmer" (relating to
what I imagine he's trying to convey), keep noodling on it. It might one day
begin to make shining sense to you...at which moment you'll have attained a
new mental height which may seriously add to your enjoyment of the sport...and
personal flight skills, too. Skilled-enjoyment is what instruction and stick
time are all about.

My .02-cents.

Bob W.

---
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“Skilled Enjoyment� I like that one Bob, and thanks for the post. At least I know someone is tracking with what I am always trying to communicate.

One of the caviats that I probably ought to restate here is that I fly low level for a living, being a duster pilot, and engage in low level turning all day long with very heavy loads and ridiculously high wing loading. So in regards to dealing with low level soaring saves, I do have a pretty big cash of experience with the nuances of low level flying. But that being said, I still very much need to keep highly sharp in my sailplane and that takes lots of “directed� practice. I never fly my 1-26 just to fly, I always have a mission in mind on every flight. Without that, a guy just ends up picking up bad habits, sloppy airmanship, and never progresses. Moffat had it right 50 years ago.
Dan

On Fri, 08 Nov 2019 16:12:28 -0800, uneekcowgirl wrote:

I never fly
my 1-26 just to fly, I always have a mission in mind on every flight.
Without that, a guy just ends up picking up bad habits, sloppy
airmanship, and never progresses. Moffat had it right 50 years ago.

Roger that. Always have something in mind, even if its a mini-triangle:
50-100 km with the field at its centre and have that dialled into your nav
system both to check that out and to keep sharp at hitting turnpoints.

At least, thats what I do. Our field's close proximity to Class D
airspace (5500 overhead our field) and NOTAMed airspace are both good
reasons to always fly with the navsystem freshly updated. About the only
time I fly without these preparations is if its the first flight in the
season or, during winter, to stay current and knowing that even a good
winch launch is very unlikely to get me more than a 15 minute flight.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Tom,
You certainly gave me a big scare during a contest, when you flew
your DG-400 across the nose of the Pawnee that I was using to tow a
Ventus