15 Hour Wonders

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 9:49:07 PM UTC-5, SoaringXCellence wrote:
Actually the regulations state that any add-on category rating only requires 15 hours in category.

When I was a DPE I tested a few SEL to Glider CFI candidates, all of them wanted to become more proficient gliders pilots. Many of them used the add-on process as a renewal for their CFI certificate and never intended to teach in gliders. It's likely they have been teaching for at least two years before adding the glider rating.

They must also have received instruction from a glider certificated instructor before taking the test (though no endorsement is needed for the first attempt). They must also pass a knowledge test (short version, 25 questions) on soaring principles and topics.

The regulation also states that they must pass a Commercial Glider test first, before applying for the CFI-G.

I recite all of this to make the point that this is not a casual, single weekend process, and I think very few would actually apply for the test with only 15 hours.

Mike

Mike, IMHO the process has become a weekend gig. I can tell you of an instance where this has happened and I just sit back and shake my head and laugh..The current system is allowing for low experience level teachers to instruct introductory level pilots and the results will and are leading to a lesser quality of learning through experience.
I am not a teacher, never intended to even consider getting a CFIG, I would probably end up in jail from hitting someone in the back of the head, but I do have something that is much more valuable than that rating. There is no substitute for experience and that does go a long way, you would probably agree. When looking for a surgeon would you consider experience to be a factor?
I do fly both ends of the rope, and I can state for a fact that sometimes I say to myself that I hope this idiot doesn't kill me! Hopefully I have a few more years of glider flying left in me, but the experience has been great.

Do you know of an instance where a 15 hour CFIG went straight to frequent teaching? If so isn't that more a fault of the club or commercial operation? We get it it would be unsound if 300 hour airplane CFIs were doing 15 hours in gliders then going off teaching, but I don't see it happening. The only place it probably has happened is in the aviation flight academies that operated motor gliders. They must have had enough rules or gray hair supervision to make it work.
Yes I get the indignation cause it could happen and those 15 hour CFIG candidates didn't suffer enough. Personally I'd welcome airplane CFI add on to toss the CFIG in the pile early on, then take the process of using it really slow. Toss em easy stuff occasionally while they are recreational soaring and building experience. I encourage private pilot airplane transitions to jump straight to Commercial, not to immediately go out and hustle rides but so years down the road they are one less hurdle from becoming CFIs. As to the horror of creating low experienced commercial glider pilots most decline and do the private add on.

I was probably a 500 hr airplane CFI when I got my 15 hrs PIC and added CFIG...

You act like this I some sort of new development. This has been the rule for a very long time. This is nothing new. It also applies to all additional categories for CFIs so it's not a glider specific thing.

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 7:05:48 AM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
I was probably a 500 hr airplane CFI when I got my 15 hrs PIC and added CFIG...

You act like this I some sort of new development. This has been the rule for a very long time. This is nothing new. It also applies to all additional categories for CFIs so it's not a glider specific thing.

Tony, I never said that this was a new development! I am saying that it is a very low requirement, I think most people would agree.

The 15 Hr Wonder you bemoan had to pass the same CFI-G Checkride using the same PTS Standards that any other CFI-G Applicant has to pass. The point that low time CFIs are Instructing low time students is valid but has been the reality in power instruction for decades. If it was creating large problems it would have manifested itself long ago. In the Power world, Instructing is generally a way to build flight time after which the pilot moves on to less stressful, more lucrative assignments.

For me, the CFI Initial Checkride (1990) required more intense preparation than for my ATP (1993) and later Type Ratings on a jet airliners. As a very recent CFI-G Applicant (2019), I approached it with the same level of preparation as my initial so long ago. Do I know everything about gliders? No. Do you?

As Tony pointed out, the 15 hr. requirement is PIC, which means glider time AFTER certification as a Private or Commercial Glider pilot. Unless this low glider time pilot has access to a modern high performance ship, they may have had a lot of flights to get that 15 hrs.

New CFIGs tend to be overly conservative and that compensates somewhat for their experience level. They understand the science, working on teaching techniques and methods. There will always be ‘surprises’ irregardless of the experience level of the instructor. No pattern of concern has been established due to instructor experience level, or we would have been made aware by the Masters gatekeepers Knauff, Compton, and others.
New instructors spool up pretty quick, and the students desire not to die goes a long way.
I’ve solo a few 14 year olds on Harris Hill and elsewhere, and that always amaze me. I saw Star Wars with 7 of them.
I was a brand new instructor from Florida entrusted with their lives. I yelled, they soloed. It was tough. Fun tough.
What a hoot.
They all made it back to the field...but I, their instructor...landed a ride in the valley.
They yelled, I stood at attention. Others laugh.

R

Fake news

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 1:20:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Fake news

Spot on.

Villifying pilots who legally meet the FAA requirements and pass the exam just adds to our burden trying to stem our declining CFI-G population.

To become a CFI-G you have to have already earned a Commercial Glider Pilot Certificate - not a gimme by any means. Having an CFI-A decreases the minimum requirements a little bit, but it doesn't change the Practical Test Standards that have to be met. CFI-G's don't want to sign off someone who isn't going to pass the exam and DPE's don't award flight instructor certificates unless they are confident the applicant is competent.

In my case, I added on my Comm-Glider four-and-a-half years ago to go along with my ATP, 5 Type Ratings, Comm-ASEL, Comm-Rotorcraft, CFI-A and CFI-R (with around two thousand hours instructing) and 21,000 hours of flying. And, I still flew gliders for four years to gain the experience, not hours, I felt I needed to be an effective instructor. The experience has made me a better glider pilot overall, so it was worth it. Too bad there's no place to use it around here.

Let's talk about experience vs attitude, shall we?
In the past four years I've seen our local senior glider instructors land short of the runway on a road with a student, send a student for their first solo without their student pilot certificate or logbook endorsement, allow a minor to continue soloing well past the expiration of his solo endorsement, continue flying a glider they declared should be grounded and justifying doing so by saying they limit their max speed to 80kts, look the other way when someone (not a CFI-G) decided to autotow a known marginal pre-solo student so he could do some "landings" and later look the other way when that same student came back from a solo flight and recounted how he got himself into a spin and somehow survived when he, admittedly, used all of the wrong recovery procedures, and one who went around the patch only one time with a private pilot who was out of 90-day currency to carry passengers and declare her legal to do so without the full three landing required by FARs.

Being long in the tooth with a thick glider logbook doesn't endow you with superpowers or forgive poor judgement. Having the right attitude and applying one's previous experience flying and instructing in other types of heavier than air flying machines makes a huge difference in the equation.

I trust those endorsing CFI-G applicants and the DPEs to be the gatekeepers and to have all of us in the sport of soaring in their minds when they sign off a new CFI-G.

Can I have an AMEN?

Paul A.
CFI-A (1986), CFI-R (1993), and CFI-G (2019)
Jupiter, FL

As a pilot who flew hang gliders for 38 years back in the day we learned pretty much by ourselves and got gliders with no experience. After a few flights I hooked up my harness to a buddy and launched him. No one would do that today and I doubt anyone wants to take on that responsibility without the expience and knowledge today. You don’t need rules all the time.

DC