Combat Ready Bush?

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Ed Rasimus
confessed the following:

First, if your unit is transitioning to a new aircraft and you don't
have sufficient retainability to qualify for the re-qual, you don't
get trained. It isn't losing interest.

Bull**** and you know it. A 6 year obligation gives you sufficient
retainability. Period. The unit spent the time and money to send you
to UPT, the prudent thing (vice "fraud, waste, and abuse") would be to
get a return on the ANG's/AF's investment. gwb lost interest, he never
said he was ineligble. gwb signed a statement of intent in 1968,
saying he planned to make flying in the TX ANG a life long commitment.
There is no evidence that he even attempted to fulfill that "promise."
He never said he lost interest, but his action sure did.

For a guy that is reportedly well thought of as an F-102 pilot, the
unit didn't make the "fraternity rush" to keep him. A guy doesn't show
up or make an attempt to fly, the obvious conclusion is he lost
interest.

Second, if your unit is becoming a training squadron vice an
operational squadron and you don't have sufficient experience to
become an instructor in the training unit, you don't get upgraded. It
isn't losing interest.

As the training officer in a line squadron I processed paperwork to
make guys IPs with less than 500 hours...some approved some not. The
111th FIS still had F-102s on hand thru 1973. Plenty of time for a guy
that wanted to make the transition to get the minimum 500 hours. And
the USAF/ANG these nice things called "waivers."

Want proof? A co-worker flew F-15 Albinos, never dropped a bomb in his
life. Got hired as an A-7 RTU IP at Tuscon when the wing was
converting to F-16s. He flew the SLUF for 10 months. Then he
transitioned to the F-16. ANG/AFRes units hire C-5 pilots to be FACs,
F-16 guys to fly C-130s, C-141 pilots to fly A-10s.

If a unit thinks highly enough of a guy/gal they will hire them. ANG
units favor folks already in the unit...happens all the time.

Fifth, some folks don't have an all-encompassing interest in flying
fighters for a career. They may have other goals and ambitions.
Nothing at all unusual about that.

True enough, but everyone I ever met kept flying as long as they
could.

Robey

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 17:37:54 GMT, Robey Price
wrote:

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Ed Rasimus
confessed the following:

First, if your unit is transitioning to a new aircraft and you don't
have sufficient retainability to qualify for the re-qual, you don't
get trained. It isn't losing interest.

Bull**** and you know it.

A very logical, reasoned and well-crafted entry to the argument. Can't
you at least save the scatology until the end/

A 6 year obligation gives you sufficient
retainability. Period.

It give you great retainability after 4.5 years--you've got a year and
a half to go. BUT, and this is an important distinction, Bush was an
ANG pilot and not a full-timer. So, that means the transition would
require full-time VOLUNTARY activation for the check-out and then
would return only minimal IP effectiveness or operational return in
the new system.

The unit spent the time and money to send you
to UPT, the prudent thing (vice "fraud, waste, and abuse") would be to
get a return on the ANG's/AF's investment.

In 1971, I was running the USAF Undergraduate Rated Officer Assignment
shop at Randolph--a MAJCOM staff position that handled input and
graduate assignment for USAF flying training programs. The annual
pilot training production for all services was slashed from a peak of
near 5500/year in USAF to half of that. The Navy was similarly
slashed.

While the USAF chose to turn off production at the recruiter--stop
further input, the NAVY chose to walk into Pensacola one morning and
release more than 400 student officers in pilot training, some who
were within two weeks of graduation. Several of those with all that
training time and money invested petitioned for service transfer and
the USAF picked them up.

The point is that during '71-'73, the AF was overwhelmed with pilots.
We had no shortage, in fact we were creating the "Rated Supplement" to
warehouse pilots in "career broadening" ground jobs because there were
no cockpit slots available.

Lots of folks were leaving the active duty force and eager to seek ANG
and AFRES slots. Many had loads of experience and since the airlines
were over-loaded with applicants they were looking for jobs.

gwb lost interest, he never
said he was ineligble. gwb signed a statement of intent in 1968,
saying he planned to make flying in the TX ANG a life long commitment.

No one ever signed up for active or reserve duty to a "life long
commitment." No one. You had an active duty service commitment. It
varied at times, but could also be modified either to shorten or
lengthen based on needs of the service. When I came on active duty in
'64 it was four years. Later it went to six. Sometimes it was
curtailed to reduce the force. Never was it "life long"--Can I return
your "bull****" with interest at this point?



Second, if your unit is becoming a training squadron vice an
operational squadron and you don't have sufficient experience to
become an instructor in the training unit, you don't get upgraded. It
isn't losing interest.

As the training officer in a line squadron I processed paperwork to
make guys IPs with less than 500 hours...some approved some not. The
111th FIS still had F-102s on hand thru 1973. Plenty of time for a guy
that wanted to make the transition to get the minimum 500 hours. And
the USAF/ANG these nice things called "waivers."

Want proof? A co-worker flew F-15 Albinos, never dropped a bomb in his
life. Got hired as an A-7 RTU IP at Tuscon when the wing was
converting to F-16s. He flew the SLUF for 10 months. Then he
transitioned to the F-16. ANG/AFRes units hire C-5 pilots to be FACs,
F-16 guys to fly C-130s, C-141 pilots to fly A-10s.

Once again you are garbling full-time (the F-15A guy) who probably
accrued 1000 hours operational by the time he separated going to work
as an RTU IP (a full-time Guard slot).

When needs are high, one thing happens. When supply exceeds demand,
something else occurs.

"I know a guy" isn't a good basis for generalizations.

If a unit thinks highly enough of a guy/gal they will hire them. ANG
units favor folks already in the unit...happens all the time.

Fifth, some folks don't have an all-encompassing interest in flying
fighters for a career. They may have other goals and ambitions.
Nothing at all unusual about that.

True enough, but everyone I ever met kept flying as long as they
could.

Good for you. A lot of guys I know kept flying for as long as they
could. A lot of others sought fame and fortune up the staff-officer
career ladder to become generals. Still others got out and became
doctors, lawyers, and indian chiefs. A lot of guys walk away from
their last ride in a fighter and never look back. So what?



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Ed Rasimus
confessed the following:

A very logical, reasoned and well-crafted entry to the argument. Can't
you at least save the scatology until the end/

touche'

We'll agree to disagree about gwb's interest versus the fact of rated
sup and the exodus to the airlines.

gwb lost interest, he never
said he was ineligble. gwb signed a statement of intent in 1968,
saying he planned to make flying in the TX ANG a life long commitment.

No one ever signed up for active or reserve duty to a "life long
commitment." No one. You had an active duty service commitment.

Poorly worded on my part. I'm not talking about the form we all signed
for accepting training. I'm talking about a "letter" of intent where
gwb professed that he wanted to fly and that he had a desire to make
flying a "life long" pursuit, and the best way to accomplish that was
as a pilot in the TX ANG.

Once again you are garbling full-time (the F-15A guy) who probably
accrued 1000 hours operational by the time he separated going to work
as an RTU IP (a full-time Guard slot).

Nope you assumed incorrectly...the co-worker was a fulltime airline
wienie flying as a part-time RTU IP.

"I know a guy" isn't a good basis for generalizations.

I know several, many exceptions...it proves ANG units can and do make
exceptions. So we'll ageree to disagree.

Good for you.

Thanks...I thought so.

A lot of guys I know kept flying for as long as they
could.... So what?

So what? Well you and I disagree on the motives of gwb's lack of
interest.

Robey

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 17:37:54 GMT, Robey Price
wrote:

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Ed Rasimus
confessed the following:

First, if your unit is transitioning to a new aircraft and you don't
have sufficient retainability to qualify for the re-qual, you don't
get trained. It isn't losing interest.

Bull**** and you know it. A 6 year obligation gives you sufficient
retainability. Period. The unit spent the time and money to send you
to UPT, the prudent thing (vice "fraud, waste, and abuse") would be to
get a return on the ANG's/AF's investment. gwb lost interest, he never
said he was ineligble. gwb signed a statement of intent in 1968,
saying he planned to make flying in the TX ANG a life long commitment.
There is no evidence that he even attempted to fulfill that "promise."
He never said he lost interest, but his action sure did.

For a guy that is reportedly well thought of as an F-102 pilot, the
unit didn't make the "fraternity rush" to keep him. A guy doesn't show
up or make an attempt to fly, the obvious conclusion is he lost
interest.

Second, if your unit is becoming a training squadron vice an
operational squadron and you don't have sufficient experience to
become an instructor in the training unit, you don't get upgraded. It
isn't losing interest.

As the training officer in a line squadron I processed paperwork to
make guys IPs with less than 500 hours...some approved some not. The
111th FIS still had F-102s on hand thru 1973. Plenty of time for a guy
that wanted to make the transition to get the minimum 500 hours. And
the USAF/ANG these nice things called "waivers."

Want proof? A co-worker flew F-15 Albinos, never dropped a bomb in his
life. Got hired as an A-7 RTU IP at Tuscon when the wing was
converting to F-16s. He flew the SLUF for 10 months. Then he
transitioned to the F-16. ANG/AFRes units hire C-5 pilots to be FACs,
F-16 guys to fly C-130s, C-141 pilots to fly A-10s.

If a unit thinks highly enough of a guy/gal they will hire them. ANG
units favor folks already in the unit...happens all the time.

Fifth, some folks don't have an all-encompassing interest in flying
fighters for a career. They may have other goals and ambitions.
Nothing at all unusual about that.

True enough, but everyone I ever met kept flying as long as they
could.

I notice that Bush flew T-33s towards the last. I wonder if that
included hauling around a chaff tank and jamming pod?
For active duty that would seem to be a job to keep your flying time
up and look ahead for brighter days when you might be able to get back
into the cockpit of something else full time. For Bush it might have
seemed like there was no light at the end of the tunnel. When you are
hauling a chaff tank and pod around on a T-33 and you have flown a set
profile for interceptor training I don't imagine there is much fun
flying afterwards with all that junk hanging off the wings...

Robey Price wrote:

gwb signed a statement of intent in 1968,
saying he planned to make flying in the TX ANG a life long commitment.

You're kidding right? What AF Form was this AF FORM LLC? I can't figure out why
guys make stuff up in newsgroups like this, as if your not going to be called
on your BS.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police,
(BUFDRVR) confessed the following:

Robey Price wrote:

gwb signed a statement of intent in 1968,
saying he planned to make flying in the TX ANG a life long commitment.

You're kidding right? What AF Form was this AF FORM LLC? I can't figure out why
guys make stuff up in newsgroups like this, as if your not going to be called
on your BS.

Try to keep up cupcake...I responded to Ed's challenge in this vein,
responding thusly:

Poorly worded on my part. I'm not talking about the form we all signed
for accepting training. I'm talking about a "letter" of intent where
gwb professed that he wanted to fly and that he had a desire to make
flying a "life long" pursuit, and the best way to accomplish that was
as a pilot in the TX ANG.

Carry on...

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police,
(BUFDRVR) confessed the following:

Robey Price wrote:

gwb signed a statement of intent in 1968,
saying he planned to make flying in the TX ANG a life long commitment.

You're kidding right? What AF Form was this AF FORM LLC? I can't figure out why
guys make stuff up in newsgroups like this, as if your not going to be called
on your BS.

Check here for a document titled "Statement of Intent"

http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdoc...onnel_File.pdf

Page 7 of 25 cupcake...made it up did I? Bull**** was it? Sorry
BUFDRVR what's that you said?

Feel free to type "mea culpa."

Your turn.

Robey Price wrote:

Check here for a document titled "Statement of Intent"

Yep, so what? I fail to see where he said (and you claimed he said) that
military flying was going to be a "life long commitment". He specifically
"intended" to finish his ADSC (which he did) and make *flying* a life long
comittment. So your beef with Lt. Bush was that he failed to get a civilian
rating or pursue the airlines? He certainly didn't do anything in that letter
that some how comitted him to do anything than serve his ADSC.

Page 7 of 25 cupcake...made it up did I?

Yes. You claimed he was obligated to life long membership in the Air National
Guard because of this document, that has been shown to be false.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police,
(BUFDRVR) confessed the following:

Robey Price wrote:

Check here for a document titled "Statement of Intent"

Yep, so what?

So what? Who sarcastically asked,"What AF Form was this AF FORM LLC? I
can't figure out why guys make stuff up in newsgroups like this...?"

Answer...it wasn't made up.

I fail to see where he said (and you claimed he said) that
military flying was going to be a "life long commitment".

"gwb signed a statement of intent in 1968,
saying he planned to make flying in the TX ANG a life long commitment.
There is no evidence that he even attempted to fulfill that "promise."
He never said he lost interest, but his action sure did."

He specifically "intended" to finish his ADSC (which he did) and make *flying* a life long
comittment.

...."by serving as a memeber of the Air National Guard as long as
possible."

You left that part out.

So your beef with Lt. Bush was that he failed to get a civilian
rating or pursue the airlines? He certainly didn't do anything in that letter
that some how comitted him to do anything than serve his ADSC.

No my beef is a congressman's son, with a 1966 Disorderly Conduct
arrest for drunkenness (later dropped), scored the freakin' bare
minimum 25 on the pilot part of the AFOQT, got picked for a great gig
as a fighter pilot and flew only 22 months after becoming MR, then
lost interest. Simple. I'm ignoring the allegations that he was
snorting coke at the time and didn't even take his physical in August
resulting in his grounding.

The pedant will point out, traditional reservist do NOT have ADSC,
they have a MSO (military service obligation) see page 16 of 33 here
http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdoc...ent_Packet.pdf

Yes. You claimed he was obligated to life long membership in the Air National
Guard because of this document, that has been shown to be false.

**** can't you read BD? My grief is that gwb lost interest after 22
months. He signed the letter that ends "by serving as a memeber of the
Air National Guard as long as possible."

Bottom Line: you challenged the veracity of my claim he signed some
bull**** letter...he did. You BD were left ****ing flat footed, now
arguing the semantics of things I didn't claim. You started off
arguing there was no letter...when confronted with the facts you now
argue what he meant by signing the letter.

Pitiful!

Robey Price wrote:

Yep, so what?

So what? Who sarcastically asked,"What AF Form was this AF FORM LLC? I
can't figure out why guys make stuff up in newsgroups like this...?"

No, the answer still is; so what? That piece of paper did not obligate Bush to
do *anything*.

Answer...it wasn't made up.

No, the document wasn't made up, but the fact that you are trying to create
some kind of commitment from it sure is.

"gwb signed a statement of intent in 1968,
saying he planned to make flying in the TX ANG a life long commitment.

No, he said he was making flying a life long commitment. All he said about the
TANG was that he would serve his entire ADSC/MSO.

There is no evidence that he even attempted to fulfill that "promise."
He never said he lost interest, but his action sure did."

Its already been pointed out to you and several others that the mission of the
111th was changing and would not be condusive to traditional guardsmen. It
appears that even if Bush had wanted to fly more than anyone on the planet he
would not have been able to with the 111th.

**** can't you read BD?

Yes.

He signed the letter that ends "by serving as a memeber of the
Air National Guard as long as possible."

Kind of hard to do if your unit first becomes an RTU, then transitions. I'm
willing to bet there were at least 2 dozen other guys in that unit that wound
up just like Lt. Bush.

Bottom Line: you challenged the veracity of my claim he signed some
bull**** letter...he did.

The letter he signed didn't commit him to anything, you claimed it did.

You BD were left ****ing flat footed, now
arguing the semantics of things I didn't claim.

No, actually you did claim he commited himself for life.

You started off
arguing there was no letter...when confronted with the facts you now
argue what he meant by signing the letter.

I argued that there was no service obligation form where you could commit for
life. I was right.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"