Libelle suitability for beginners

The others have made good points, but also consider...
There is something really special about flying the Libelle. It really feels great to fly.
And you can't beat the ventilation with the canopy partly open in flight.
The feel does change a bit when full of water ballast, more like other gliders.
Airbrakes and elevator are auto hook up. Ailerons are manual, but nice hardware - not L'Hotelliers.
Below, my second favourite flight of 2013 (first was the declared 1000km):
A 500km FAI triangle in H201B.
https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3....l?dsId=2968146
Jim

On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:05:39 -0800, JS wrote:

A 500km FAI triangle in H201B.
https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3....ightinfo.html?
dsId=2968146
Jim

Nice flight!

And a seldom mentioned benefit of the Libelle - its got the best all-
round field of view of any glider I've flown. I don't know any other
glider which lets you can check your own rudder waggle visually, even
when strapped in tight.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Agreeing with everything UH, JS, and Martin have said,

I made this jump in 2018 as a low-time glider pilot and junior who had been gradually transitioning from powered flying over a couple of years. When I took my first tow in the 201, I had about 30 hours and 50 landings in gliders, exclusively in our club’s training fleet of 2-33s and a 1-26. With a couple of hours of stick time (no landings) in a Duo Discus, I had some concept of the demands associated with a slippery ship, but was lacking formal training.

Beyond that, I solicited advice from the previous owner as well as a local instructor with some Libelle experience, and read everything I could find here on RAS and elsewhere about the type, including Martin’s helpful notes.

I knew at the time it would be a good idea to get some dual time in a K21 or Grob 103, but this would’ve been pretty financially taxing for me as a student at commercial rates and involve a minimum of 5 hours on the road.

Fortunately, taking that risk paid off with a first flight only notable for the giant grin I couldn’t seem to shake. Since then, Libelle ownership has opened the door to quite a few fulfilling XC experiences both from the home ‘drome and elsewhere which wouldn’t have been feasible in club hardware, and, with some luck, many more to come.

Now that I’m a bit older and hopefully a bit wiser, I couldn’t recommend in good conscience that someone make the same decisions I made, notwithstanding the outcome. I’m sharing my single data point mainly to emphasize that pilots with a level of experience approaching what UH asks reasonably before loaning out his glider shouldn’t stress out about moving up to a Libelle as long as they prepare for it.

(As an aside, the whole prospect of ownership was made much less intimidating by going in with a partner with broadly similar goals and experience.)

Practically, the main obstacle for most is the cockpit dimensions, particularly at the shoulders. At 6’ 1� with narrow-ish shoulders for my height, I manage to fit comfortably with the back rest at the aft limit with a regular, backpack-style softie parachute. Of course, the only way to know for sure is to try.

With regards to the “light� construction, you’ll see it written that Libelles are more prone to tail boom breaks in a ground loop than contemporary and newer glass ships. Of course, crashworthiness was not a primary concern at the time they were designed either. Neither the 201 nor 301 are certified for spins or any aerobatics, and you won’t find the limiting g loads in the manual, or anywhere for that matter, although I haven’t yet found a copy of the standards the gliders were certified under. The good news is that the structural design seems to have endured well over 100,000 hours across the fleet with no failures in flight. (If I’ve missed one, I’d be interested to hear about it.)

In short, the Libelle offers great value for money to those who fit comfortably, and transitioning from lower performance gliders with limited experience shouldn’t be too risky with some preparation.

Neiman
H201 #81 ‘WE’

The Libelle makes a fine first glass ship in my opinion. The one Hank is talking about (JR) was owned near me years ago and was my first glass flying.. In my opinion the handling differences between glass and everything else is over played.
You'll be fine! I'd stick with the 201 for a first glider for a low time pilot. You dont need the flaps of the 301 just yet. It's been a while but if I recall correctly the 301s had a balsa core and the 201 foam? Not a big deal, but something to consider during a pre-buy inspection.

On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 15:24:20 -0800, dtarmichael wrote:

You'll be fine! I'd stick with the 201 for a first glider for a low time
pilot. You dont need the flaps of the 301 just yet.

One of these days, if I'm lucky, I'll get to see a 301. It seems that
most of them are in the US: there aren't more than 5 or 6 in the UK and
none live anywhere I've been.

BEEN It's been a while but if I recall correctly the 301s had a balsa
core and the 201 foam? Not a big deal, but something to consider during
a pre-buy inspection.

Not quite: 201s were entirely balsa until s/n 110 (mine is 82). The
transition from the all-balsa 201 with no water and both-surface airbrakes
to the 201B with all-foam surfaces, top-surface airbrakes and water bags
as standard started with s/n 111 and was complete at s/n 182.

FWIW, the first few 201s had fixed undercarriages too (Standard Class
rules!) but I believe they were all converted to retracts when the rules
changed. I've seen s/n 5, which was converted, but never an unconverted
one.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

I bought a Libelle 201b before soloing and left it in storage until I got my PPG certificate. The next week I flew the Libelle with no prior single seat experience. I trained in a Blanik and had only one or two training flights in a Duo Discus. I had no problems and found the Libelle very sweet, particularly as a climber. Rudder pedal pressure is extremely light, I preferred to fly with thin soled shoes. On landing, don't touch down too fast or it will bounce. Very easy and light to rig. The detachable canopy can be a negative. Make sure nobody steps on it when you are rigging.

On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 00:00:27 +0000, Martin Gregorie wrote:

Not quite: 201s were entirely balsa until s/n 110 (mine is 82). The
transition from the all-balsa 201 with no water and both-surface
airbrakes to the 201B with all-foam surfaces, top-surface airbrakes and
water bags as standard started with s/n 111 and was complete at s/n 182.

I should have added a warning I was given about 201s with double surface
brakes: If you're forced to land out on long, thick grass or crop, try to
put the brakes away just before dropping into the long stuff or you may
find the lower brakes severely bent, though I suspect that remembering to
do this may be a stretch and this may make getting it into the trailer
'interesting'.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 2:24:32 PM UTC-8, Neiman Walker wrote:
Agreeing with everything UH, JS, and Martin have said,

I made this jump in 2018 as a low-time glider pilot and junior who had been gradually transitioning from powered flying over a couple of years. When I took my first tow in the 201, I had about 30 hours and 50 landings in gliders, exclusively in our club’s training fleet of 2-33s and a 1-26.. With a couple of hours of stick time (no landings) in a Duo Discus, I had some concept of the demands associated with a slippery ship, but was lacking formal training.

Beyond that, I solicited advice from the previous owner as well as a local instructor with some Libelle experience, and read everything I could find here on RAS and elsewhere about the type, including Martin’s helpful notes.

I knew at the time it would be a good idea to get some dual time in a K21 or Grob 103, but this would’ve been pretty financially taxing for me as a student at commercial rates and involve a minimum of 5 hours on the road.

Fortunately, taking that risk paid off with a first flight only notable for the giant grin I couldn’t seem to shake. Since then, Libelle ownership has opened the door to quite a few fulfilling XC experiences both from the home ‘drome and elsewhere which wouldn’t have been feasible in club hardware, and, with some luck, many more to come.

Now that I’m a bit older and hopefully a bit wiser, I couldn’t recommend in good conscience that someone make the same decisions I made, notwithstanding the outcome. I’m sharing my single data point mainly to emphasize that pilots with a level of experience approaching what UH asks reasonably before loaning out his glider shouldn’t stress out about moving up to a Libelle as long as they prepare for it.

(As an aside, the whole prospect of ownership was made much less intimidating by going in with a partner with broadly similar goals and experience.)

Practically, the main obstacle for most is the cockpit dimensions, particularly at the shoulders. At 6’ 1� with narrow-ish shoulders for my height, I manage to fit comfortably with the back rest at the aft limit with a regular, backpack-style softie parachute. Of course, the only way to know for sure is to try.

With regards to the “light� construction, you’ll see it written that Libelles are more prone to tail boom breaks in a ground loop than contemporary and newer glass ships. Of course, crashworthiness was not a primary concern at the time they were designed either. Neither the 201 nor 301 are certified for spins or any aerobatics, and you won’t find the limiting g loads in the manual, or anywhere for that matter, although I haven’t yet found a copy of the standards the gliders were certified under. The good news is that the structural design seems to have endured well over 100,000 hours across the fleet with no failures in flight. (If I’ve missed one, I’d be interested to hear about it.)

In short, the Libelle offers great value for money to those who fit comfortably, and transitioning from lower performance gliders with limited experience shouldn’t be too risky with some preparation.


Neiman
H201 #81 ‘WE’

Here's a video of Nieman's first take off in the 201 Libelle. Not bad at all!
https://youtu.be/jNKdrL8QfZM
Also got a video of Nieman's first landing in the 201 Libelle. Also not bad!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVPt2wi86QE

That's the glider! My father flew it in the 1977 Standard Nats at Ionia, MI and the Cordele regionals in August. I had a few flights in it that fall at the Chilhowee, TN Oktoberfest gathering. We had a number of practice flights together with me flying our first 201 (ca. 1970). Great memories! Thanks for posting the links. She still looks good 43 years later!

Chip Bearden
JB