27 crash at Ely?

I share this opinion. BTW the main rules are; keep the speed up (so you won't run out of ailron) and stay coordinated.

6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 10:54 AM:
I share this opinion. BTW the main rules are; keep the speed up (so you won't run out of ailron) and stay coordinated.


"Keep the speed up" isn't a rule, it's just encouragement. How can a pilot
determine the flying speed is fast enough? I don't fly faster just because I'm
circling near the slope of a ridge, or mountain face; generally, I think I fly
fast enough to handle the turbulence easily. Coupled with that is moving farther
from the rocks the bumpier the air is. So far, that's worked, but I have no idea
how to put that fuzzy advice into something another pilot can use.

And, I'm sure the speed and distance depends a lot on the type of glider, in
addition to pilot skill, but I can't even tell someone how far I am from the rocks
- no way to measure, so it's just guessing if I mention a number, and the other
pilot is just guessing, too, when he tries to stay that far away.

Maybe I'm just lucky, because I've never experienced the loss of roll control for
more than, say, 20 degrees. Or maybe I scare easily enough, that I've always given
myself enough airspeed and distance. How do I tell the difference between luck and
good piloting?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 3:03:12 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 10:54 AM:
I share this opinion. BTW the main rules are; keep the speed up (so you won't run out of ailron) and stay coordinated.


"Keep the speed up" isn't a rule, it's just encouragement. How can a pilot
determine the flying speed is fast enough? I don't fly faster just because I'm
circling near the slope of a ridge, or mountain face; generally, I think I fly
fast enough to handle the turbulence easily. Coupled with that is moving farther
from the rocks the bumpier the air is. So far, that's worked, but I have no idea
how to put that fuzzy advice into something another pilot can use.

And, I'm sure the speed and distance depends a lot on the type of glider, in
addition to pilot skill, but I can't even tell someone how far I am from the rocks
- no way to measure, so it's just guessing if I mention a number, and the other
pilot is just guessing, too, when he tries to stay that far away.

Maybe I'm just lucky, because I've never experienced the loss of roll control for
more than, say, 20 degrees. Or maybe I scare easily enough, that I've always given
myself enough airspeed and distance. How do I tell the difference between luck and
good piloting?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Not keeping the speed up; and I mean 5-10kn over smooth air and terrain depending how rough it maybe. It's way too easy too lose control in slow speeds and even stall in rough air. Being close to the rocks is a personal choice, some feel more comfortable being closer than others and that is just the way it is, there is no hard rules in regards to that. Obviously stay far enough to be out of trouble. "Hammering the rudder" is absurd and is asking for an inadvertent spin which BTW I'm sure the cause many of lives lost near terrain.

A vortex can produce a shear of twice the wind aloft in something like 2-3 seconds. The axis can be vertical, horizontal or anywhere in between.

I remember pulling my 27 into a thermal at about 50 kt while moving to flap 3 - and getting spat out inverted on a 30±° downline in a blink of an eye. Lost 800'.

6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 3:29 PM:
On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 3:03:12 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 10:54 AM:
I share this opinion. BTW the main rules are; keep the speed up (so you won't run out of ailron) and stay coordinated.


"Keep the speed up" isn't a rule, it's just encouragement. How can a pilot
determine the flying speed is fast enough? I don't fly faster just because I'm
circling near the slope of a ridge, or mountain face; generally, I think I fly
fast enough to handle the turbulence easily. Coupled with that is moving farther
from the rocks the bumpier the air is. So far, that's worked, but I have no idea
how to put that fuzzy advice into something another pilot can use.

And, I'm sure the speed and distance depends a lot on the type of glider, in
addition to pilot skill, but I can't even tell someone how far I am from the rocks
- no way to measure, so it's just guessing if I mention a number, and the other
pilot is just guessing, too, when he tries to stay that far away.

Maybe I'm just lucky, because I've never experienced the loss of roll control for
more than, say, 20 degrees. Or maybe I scare easily enough, that I've always given
myself enough airspeed and distance. How do I tell the difference between luck and
good piloting?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Not keeping the speed up; and I mean 5-10kn over smooth air and terrain depending how rough it maybe. It's way too easy too lose control in slow speeds and even stall in rough air. Being close to the rocks is a personal choice, some feel more comfortable being closer than others and that is just the way it is, there is no hard rules in regards to that. Obviously stay far enough to be out of trouble. "Hammering the rudder" is absurd and is asking for an inadvertent spin which BTW I'm sure the cause many of lives lost near terrain.

My understanding is the advice applied to a glider that is flying - not stalled -
but not fast enough to generate roll greater than the excess lift under one wing.
Full rudder would help the other wing develop more lift.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 9:09:19 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 3:29 PM:
On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 3:03:12 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 10:54 AM:
I share this opinion. BTW the main rules are; keep the speed up (so you won't run out of ailron) and stay coordinated.


"Keep the speed up" isn't a rule, it's just encouragement. How can a pilot
determine the flying speed is fast enough? I don't fly faster just because I'm
circling near the slope of a ridge, or mountain face; generally, I think I fly
fast enough to handle the turbulence easily. Coupled with that is moving farther
from the rocks the bumpier the air is. So far, that's worked, but I have no idea
how to put that fuzzy advice into something another pilot can use.

And, I'm sure the speed and distance depends a lot on the type of glider, in
addition to pilot skill, but I can't even tell someone how far I am from the rocks
- no way to measure, so it's just guessing if I mention a number, and the other
pilot is just guessing, too, when he tries to stay that far away.

Maybe I'm just lucky, because I've never experienced the loss of roll control for
more than, say, 20 degrees. Or maybe I scare easily enough, that I've always given
myself enough airspeed and distance. How do I tell the difference between luck and
good piloting?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Not keeping the speed up; and I mean 5-10kn over smooth air and terrain depending how rough it maybe. It's way too easy too lose control in slow speeds and even stall in rough air. Being close to the rocks is a personal choice, some feel more comfortable being closer than others and that is just the way it is, there is no hard rules in regards to that. Obviously stay far enough to be out of trouble. "Hammering the rudder" is absurd and is asking for an inadvertent spin which BTW I'm sure the cause many of lives lost near terrain.

My understanding is the advice applied to a glider that is flying - not stalled -
but not fast enough to generate roll greater than the excess lift under one wing.
Full rudder would help the other wing develop more lift.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

....or it could, and likely would, put the wing into a deep stall.

The procedure is push and hard rudder. Ther are situations where this is the only way out.

As 5Z and Tango Whisky says.
If you don’t know how to use rudder to help lifting a wing than you missing fundamental knowledge.
This is not only helpful in cruise but also on takeoff roll and tow.
This not to be confused with cross control or with attempt to expedite a base to final turn, this may kill you.

Ramy

On Thursday, July 23, 2020 at 12:55:12 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
The procedure is push and hard rudder. Ther are situations where this is the only way out.

Stupid question: if you push to zero-G, wouldn't then the yaw caused by the "hard rudder" have zero rolling effect, since both wings have zero AOA, thus the differential airspeed doesn't matter?

2G wrote on 7/22/2020 9:28 PM:
On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 9:09:19 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 3:29 PM:
On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 3:03:12 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 10:54 AM:
I share this opinion. BTW the main rules are; keep the speed up (so you won't run out of ailron) and stay coordinated.


"Keep the speed up" isn't a rule, it's just encouragement. How can a pilot
determine the flying speed is fast enough? I don't fly faster just because I'm
circling near the slope of a ridge, or mountain face; generally, I think I fly
fast enough to handle the turbulence easily. Coupled with that is moving farther
from the rocks the bumpier the air is. So far, that's worked, but I have no idea
how to put that fuzzy advice into something another pilot can use.

And, I'm sure the speed and distance depends a lot on the type of glider, in
addition to pilot skill, but I can't even tell someone how far I am from the rocks
- no way to measure, so it's just guessing if I mention a number, and the other
pilot is just guessing, too, when he tries to stay that far away.

Maybe I'm just lucky, because I've never experienced the loss of roll control for
more than, say, 20 degrees. Or maybe I scare easily enough, that I've always given
myself enough airspeed and distance. How do I tell the difference between luck and
good piloting?



Not keeping the speed up; and I mean 5-10kn over smooth air and terrain depending how rough it maybe. It's way too easy too lose control in slow speeds and even stall in rough air. Being close to the rocks is a personal choice, some feel more comfortable being closer than others and that is just the way it is, there is no hard rules in regards to that. Obviously stay far enough to be out of trouble. "Hammering the rudder" is absurd and is asking for an inadvertent spin which BTW I'm sure the cause many of lives lost near terrain.

My understanding is the advice applied to a glider that is flying - not stalled -
but not fast enough to generate roll greater than the excess lift under one wing.
Full rudder would help the other wing develop more lift.


....or it could, and likely would, put the wing into a deep stall.

If the dropping wing is stalled, opposite rudder is part of the spin recovery; if
the dropping wing isn't stalled (the case we were discussing), opposite rudder
will increase the lift on the wing, and help overcome the rolling induced by the
updraft. I think most of us would automatically apply full rudder anyway, when
they applied full aileron.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1