Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course

Is any long flight really worth busting your glider or your ass?

On 7/29/2020 9:43 AM, John Cochrane wrote:
On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 8:08:30 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 10:27:27 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
I have spent a lot of my glides across Lake Tahoe looking at the water options. The problem is, anywhere near shore and where you might be able to swim to shore and then rescue a glider is full of boats, jet skis, piers, paddle boards, kayaks, swimmers and so on. The water is not an easy option. Ramy's golf course is incredibly narrow, surrounded by trees, and has golfers on it. From google maps, the swampy area between the road and Ramy's golf course looks possible. Has anyone looked at that? One solid walk away from it option in the basin would bar awfully nice.
John Cochrane BB
I agree that the water close to shore, especially around Kings Beach is pretty cluttered. One possibility is the driving range, as it will have no one on it - but it looks pretty short. I've thought about the swampy area you refer to, will go walk that next time I am up. By far the best option is to stay above Marlette Lake and only turn left with good altitude.
Thanks. I'll also find an excuse to go walk that swampy area. And I think this story reinforces conventional wisdom: Don't try it unless you see wind on the water at Lake Tahoe. Don't leave Marlette Lake without a good Mc 3 + glide past Brockaway summit. Think real hard if you want to do this before glide to Carson disappears. And... Let's hear more rules of thumb from locals. I think if nothing else Ramy's story emphasizes, think through this decision before you're faced with it.

John Cochrane


--
Dan, 5J

How can you land out on a flight with a glider that is averaging 83 to 1 glide over the entire flight?? (See the OLC link at top.)To me that would be almost like having a motor. Seems like really bad planning.

On Friday, July 31, 2020 at 7:58:09 PM UTC-5, Soartech wrote:
How can you land out on a flight with a glider that is averaging 83 to 1 glide over the entire flight?? (See the OLC link at top.)To me that would be almost like having a motor. Seems like really bad planning.

Gliders have been landing out for as long as they have been flying.
While a great ship offers amazing performance, (not like I own one though),
the inevitable victory belongs to gravity.
Nobody got hurt, Success I say, and a valuable lesson to be shared without criticism.
Respect,
Scott

^^^Yep what he said! ^^^

On Friday, July 31, 2020 at 5:58:09 PM UTC-7, Soartech wrote:
How can you land out on a flight with a glider that is averaging 83 to 1 glide over the entire flight?? (See the OLC link at top.)To me that would be almost like having a motor. Seems like really bad planning.

Never flown out west eh? Long runs at very high L/D are common out here, high and under the clouds. But the day eventually ends and then it is back to reality. There is almost never any lift over Lake Tahoe. The bad planning was entering the Tahoe basin with insufficient altitude to retreat.

I believe the landing was on the 1st and 2nd fairway. These line up along State 267. The other golf course landing we have had was when Gavin Wills landed a DuoDiscus on North Lake Tahoe golf course. That is considerably more open, far fewer trees - but also another 10 miles further across the lake.

On Sat, 01 Aug 2020 08:29:13 -0700, jfitch wrote:

This is slightly off topic, as its about an engine failure in a P-51, but
is well worth watching because the majority of it is concerned with the
pilot talking us through a video shot from the aircraft followed by a
very interesting discussion as he and the interviewer unpick his thought
processes. Here's the link:

https://youtu.be/BBpqvPujZgM

FWIW the URL was posted in a club heads-up about power loss in a tug or
TMG.



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Great video, there are couple of questions I would ask though.

1) Why did he not turn much tighter to return to the airfield, one looses much less height in a tight turn that a shallow one? From a tight turn he might have been able to land downwind. Of course I do not know what the winds were, or how feasible is to land P-51 downwind.

2) Why did he cross the highway, surely he could have turned base halfway down the strip and have enough runway to stop.

Whilst I appreciate that he did not do it under the pressure of the situation, I was surprised however, that it did not come up in the discussion.

Cheers

Paul

On Sunday, 2 August 2020 03:05:48 UTC+10, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 01 Aug 2020 08:29:13 -0700, jfitch wrote:

This is slightly off topic, as its about an engine failure in a P-51, but
is well worth watching because the majority of it is concerned with the
pilot talking us through a video shot from the aircraft followed by a
very interesting discussion as he and the interviewer unpick his thought
processes. Here's the link:

https://youtu.be/BBpqvPujZgM

FWIW the URL was posted in a club heads-up about power loss in a tug or
TMG.



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Sun, 02 Aug 2020 03:39:34 -0700, Paul B wrote:

Great video, there are couple of questions I would ask though.

1) Why did he not turn much tighter to return to the airfield, one
looses much less height in a tight turn that a shallow one? From a tight
turn he might have been able to land downwind. Of course I do not know
what the winds were, or how feasible is to land P-51 downwind.

2) Why did he cross the highway, surely he could have turned base
halfway down the strip and have enough runway to stop.

If you have Google Earth or similar, go he
52° 5'32.77"N 0° 7'43.46"E

Take a look at the situation. From the video it looks as though he was
flying a left-hand circuit, with the downwind leg on the north of the
airfield. This means that there was an easterly, so they would have
crossed the motorway immediately after takeoff. The main runway was
shortened when the M11 motorway was built across it in 1977, 1200ft from
its eastern end.

Here I'm guessing but its likely the formation formed up ENE from the
airfield, maybe somewhere south of Whittlesford or Pampisford, ready for
a pass down runway 24.

Turning in early wouldn't have been a good idea with lots of buildings to
cross: you can see them off to his left in the video and doing so would
also have meant flying over a lot of spectators, so definitely a no-no.

Whilst I appreciate that he did not do it under the pressure of the
situation, I was surprised however, that it did not come up in the
discussion.

I thought the pilot said he considered and discarded that option. Reason
left unsaid, but buildings and lots of people would have been a good
enough reason for that.

This is slightly off topic, as its about an engine failure in a P-51,
but is well worth watching because the majority of it is concerned with
the pilot talking us through a video shot from the aircraft followed by
a very interesting discussion as he and the interviewer unpick his
thought processes. Here's the link:

https://youtu.be/BBpqvPujZgM



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

I recall hearing the pilot say that he had his gear up to extend his
glide and someone yelled on the radio about that.Â* In the heat of the
moment the radio call made him turn away from the airport.

On 8/2/2020 5:41 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sun, 02 Aug 2020 03:39:34 -0700, Paul B wrote:

Great video, there are couple of questions I would ask though.

1) Why did he not turn much tighter to return to the airfield, one
looses much less height in a tight turn that a shallow one? From a tight
turn he might have been able to land downwind. Of course I do not know
what the winds were, or how feasible is to land P-51 downwind.

2) Why did he cross the highway, surely he could have turned base
halfway down the strip and have enough runway to stop.

If you have Google Earth or similar, go he
52° 5'32.77"N 0° 7'43.46"E

Take a look at the situation. From the video it looks as though he was
flying a left-hand circuit, with the downwind leg on the north of the
airfield. This means that there was an easterly, so they would have
crossed the motorway immediately after takeoff. The main runway was
shortened when the M11 motorway was built across it in 1977, 1200ft from
its eastern end.

Here I'm guessing but its likely the formation formed up ENE from the
airfield, maybe somewhere south of Whittlesford or Pampisford, ready for
a pass down runway 24.

Turning in early wouldn't have been a good idea with lots of buildings to
cross: you can see them off to his left in the video and doing so would
also have meant flying over a lot of spectators, so definitely a no-no.

Whilst I appreciate that he did not do it under the pressure of the
situation, I was surprised however, that it did not come up in the
discussion.

I thought the pilot said he considered and discarded that option. Reason
left unsaid, but buildings and lots of people would have been a good
enough reason for that.

This is slightly off topic, as its about an engine failure in a P-51,
but is well worth watching because the majority of it is concerned with
the pilot talking us through a video shot from the aircraft followed by
a very interesting discussion as he and the interviewer unpick his
thought processes. Here's the link:

https://youtu.be/BBpqvPujZgM



--
Dan, 5J

He mentioned multiple times that he was low energy - low altitude, low airspeed. In another portion of the interview he mentioned the machine guns were whistling, which is a well known indicator that your angle of attack is critical. Turning tighter would increase wing load, which increases stall speed, which increases the chance of a low speed stall/spin. My guess is that was a top concern at the time.

On Sunday, August 2, 2020 at 5:39:36 AM UTC-5, Paul B wrote:
Great video, there are couple of questions I would ask though.

1) Why did he not turn much tighter to return to the airfield, one looses much less height in a tight turn that a shallow one? From a tight turn he might have been able to land downwind. Of course I do not know what the winds were, or how feasible is to land P-51 downwind.

2) Why did he cross the highway, surely he could have turned base halfway down the strip and have enough runway to stop.

Whilst I appreciate that he did not do it under the pressure of the situation, I was surprised however, that it did not come up in the discussion.

Cheers

Paul

On Sunday, 2 August 2020 03:05:48 UTC+10, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 01 Aug 2020 08:29:13 -0700, jfitch wrote:

This is slightly off topic, as its about an engine failure in a P-51, but
is well worth watching because the majority of it is concerned with the
pilot talking us through a video shot from the aircraft followed by a
very interesting discussion as he and the interviewer unpick his thought
processes. Here's the link:

https://youtu.be/BBpqvPujZgM

FWIW the URL was posted in a club heads-up about power loss in a tug or
TMG.



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org