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Mr. Kambic makes some good points below, and the first paragraph of his I
left below is very true. The Navy has never quite seemed to been able to integrate its reserve forces in the manner that the USAF has, even with the drawdown after Desert Storm, when the reserves became a greater percentage of the total force. The last USNR squadron I was in had spent the last few years conducting 6 month deployments aboard ship. Unheard of not long before. What are some advantages of a robust reserve force? A typical RESFORON is manned by aviators with an average of ten or more years of experience. These aviators come at a cost of about 1/3 of their active duty counterparts. They leave active duty for a variety of reasons, but allowing them to continue to serve in a reserve capacity enables the Navy to retain experienced people at a low cost. People who can be mobilized in time of national crisis. It's a face card in the back pocket of the leadership. I think someone made a statement that getting rid of some of the RESFORONS will free up airframes for active duty squadrons.To me, that reasoning sounds like a poor Band-Aid for an airframe availability problem. The airframes the reserves get are usually the beaters and cast-offs from the active duty. (It took a good deal of scraping to find FOUR airframes to stand up HSL-60, all of which were put through rework before being sent to the squadron.) Decimating reserve squadrons is not going to solve the woes of the active duty side of nav air. As Mr. Kambic alluded to in his second paragraph below, it may, in fact, lead to other problems in the future. If getting rid of RESFORONS, hardware, and people, is seen as a solution to budget problems, I think there may some more serious, underlying issues at work. Is there waste in the Naval Reserve? A certain amount exists on both sides of the fence, and it becomes a matter of where you want to shine the spotlight, your point of view, and your ability to spin. One plan I have heard suggested is that reserve aircrews become part of "augment units" that support active duty squadrons. This raised a few questions, and I don't recall if they were really answered. How are the reserve aircrews funded? Who will manage their continued training and operating within the active duty squadrons? Could such a plan work? I think so, but only if the active duty squadrons see the reserves as a benefit to them. Of course, as with any plan, the one that started this whole thread could change by next week. In the end we shall see what we shall see. Just my 2 cents. Eric Scheie "Bill Kambic" wrote in message ... More to the point, loss of an internal Reserve hardware capability is unlikely to EVER return. The RESFORONS have always been "poor relations" but made do with what they had and sometimes embarassed Active Duty types in head to head competition. The Active Duty types have, in my personal presence, often noted the vast "wastage" of funds on the Reserve hardware units. (To be completely fair, a fair number have also "looked behind the curtain" and seen the reasons why hardware units are a Very Good Thing.) The likelyhood of facing the hords of the Red Army (or the late, unlamented Soviet Navy) is very small. But there are still places where you can lose a bunch of aircraft and people in a hurry and have to replace them the same way (a "dust up" in North Korea comes to mind). The complexity of modern aircraft means that the "WWII Approach" of 90 day wonder to Fleet Fighter Pilot in a year (or so) is unlikely to EVER be seen again. This means that you have to have a "well" of trained people to draw on in time of crisis. The REFORON/SRU hardware units filled that need. When they "go away" so will a cheap solution to an expensive problem. Bill Kambic Formerly of VS-73 (the SRU part whose numbers escape me) and VP-93 (ditto), NAF Detroit, 1974-1978 |
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![]() "Eric Scheie" wrote in message . net... Mr. Kambic makes some good points below, and the first paragraph of his I left below is very true. The Navy has never quite seemed to been able to integrate its reserve forces in the manner that the USAF has, even with the drawdown after Desert Storm, when the reserves became a greater percentage of the total force. The last USNR squadron I was in had spent the last few years conducting 6 month deployments aboard ship. Unheard of not long before. What are some advantages of a robust reserve force? A typical RESFORON is manned by aviators with an average of ten or more years of experience. These aviators come at a cost of about 1/3 of their active duty counterparts. They leave active duty for a variety of reasons, but allowing them to continue to serve in a reserve capacity enables the Navy to retain experienced people at a low cost. People who can be mobilized in time of national crisis. It's a face card in the back pocket of the leadership. I doubt any here question their value. I don't. I think someone made a statement that getting rid of some of the RESFORONS will free up airframes for active duty squadrons.To me, that reasoning sounds like a poor Band-Aid for an airframe availability problem. The airframes the reserves get are usually the beaters and cast-offs from the active duty. (It took a good deal of scraping to find FOUR airframes to stand up HSL-60, all of which were put through rework before being sent to the squadron.) Decimating reserve squadrons is not going to solve the woes of the active duty side of nav air. As Mr. Kambic alluded to in his second paragraph below, it may, in fact, lead to other problems in the future. If getting rid of RESFORONS, hardware, and people, is seen as a solution to budget problems, I think there may some more serious, underlying issues at work. At one time this was true. Currently, many of the Reserve's airframes have less hours on them. Will getting these airframes fix the problem? No, but it may keep us alive until the fix (new airframes) reaches us. The fact is that in the next few years squadrons will be decommissioned. What we're discussing is who should lose those squadrons. Navair or Navairres. Is there waste in the Naval Reserve? A certain amount exists on both sides of the fence, and it becomes a matter of where you want to shine the spotlight, your point of view, and your ability to spin. One plan I have heard suggested is that reserve aircrews become part of "augment units" that support active duty squadrons. This raised a few questions, and I don't recall if they were really answered. How are the reserve aircrews funded? Who will manage their continued training and operating within the active duty squadrons? Could such a plan work? I think so, but only if the active duty squadrons see the reserves as a benefit to them. It worked in the 80's. I spent 4.5 years as a Selres in an SAU, VP-0545. I enjoyed acdutras with VP-45 in both Rota and Bermuda and got some quality onsta time. We seem to have forgotten the value of the SAU's. Giz |
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On 7/4/03 3:52 PM, in article ,
"Giz" wrote: Is there waste in the Naval Reserve? A certain amount exists on both sides of the fence, and it becomes a matter of where you want to shine the spotlight, your point of view, and your ability to spin. One plan I have heard suggested is that reserve aircrews become part of "augment units" that support active duty squadrons. This raised a few questions, and I don't recall if they were really answered. How are the reserve aircrews funded? Who will manage their continued training and operating within the active duty squadrons? Could such a plan work? I think so, but only if the active duty squadrons see the reserves as a benefit to them. It worked in the 80's. I spent 4.5 years as a Selres in an SAU, VP-0545. I enjoyed acdutras with VP-45 in both Rota and Bermuda and got some quality onsta time. We seem to have forgotten the value of the SAU's. Giz SAU is a program that works in FRS's and deployed VP units but not in reserve VF's or VFA's. A single-seat pilot especially would have some major trouble working up for, traveling to, and flying his ACDUTRA in a deployed CVW for two weeks for a variety of reasons. Likewise, the VFA's are not having the airframe problems that the VP's are having. What I'm saying is keep the reserve VFA status quo. Consider SAU-ing reserves into the active duty VP's. --Woody |
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![]() "Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" wrote in message ... On 7/4/03 3:52 PM, in article , "Giz" wrote: Is there waste in the Naval Reserve? A certain amount exists on both sides of the fence, and it becomes a matter of where you want to shine the spotlight, your point of view, and your ability to spin. One plan I have heard suggested is that reserve aircrews become part of "augment units" that support active duty squadrons. This raised a few questions, and I don't recall if they were really answered. How are the reserve aircrews funded? Who will manage their continued training and operating within the active duty squadrons? Could such a plan work? I think so, but only if the active duty squadrons see the reserves as a benefit to them. It worked in the 80's. I spent 4.5 years as a Selres in an SAU, VP-0545. I enjoyed acdutras with VP-45 in both Rota and Bermuda and got some quality onsta time. We seem to have forgotten the value of the SAU's. Giz SAU is a program that works in FRS's and deployed VP units but not in reserve VF's or VFA's. A single-seat pilot especially would have some major trouble working up for, traveling to, and flying his ACDUTRA in a deployed CVW for two weeks for a variety of reasons. It would be difficult. There are FRS's for the VF/VFA communities. That may be one answer. It would definitely be far from ideal. Likewise, the VFA's are not having the airframe problems that the VP's are having. No? The airframe transfer shellgame between deploying squadrons and those just returning has ended? No sarcasm there. If that has ended, then the VFA's are doing well, but the last I heard was that returning squadrons were being picked apart to bring the deployers up to full strength. What I'm saying is keep the reserve VFA status quo. Consider SAU-ing reserves into the active duty VP's. I agree that we should SAU all communities that need it. If that allows VFA and/or VF to remain as Reserve Squadrons great, but we do need to end the cycle of aircraft transfers. Giz |
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On 7/4/03 8:43 PM, in article ,
"Giz" wrote: No? The airframe transfer shellgame between deploying squadrons and those just returning has ended? No sarcasm there. If that has ended, then the VFA's are doing well, but the last I heard was that returning squadrons were being picked apart to bring the deployers up to full strength. I agree that we should SAU all communities that need it. If that allows VFA and/or VF to remain as Reserve Squadrons great, but we do need to end the cycle of aircraft transfers. Giz From an idealist's standpoint, I agree with you... but after 17 years of experience in Naval Air, I've observed that post-deployment airframe transfers are the norm. More commonly, a squadron would put their jets into preservation for 1-2 months after coming back from deployment and lose parts support. In Hornet squadrons (because each squadron typically flies only 1 or 2 lots of jets (e.g. mine flies 8's and 9's) preservation is more common than transfers. What I'm saying is that in the TACAIR communities, airframe transfers are not necessarily a gauge of health because Naval Air has been unhealthy from a parts and airframes standpoint ever since I was an Ensign. A better indicator might be the number of airplanes air wings deploy with. On my first cruise, an air wing had 90 aircraft. My most recent cruise: 70. That's all funding-driven. Sure we still have 46-50 bomb-droppers, but we could have more (i.e. an even better tooth-to-tail) if the budget would allow it. The leadership has allowed (even promoted) the decrease to keep aircraft carrier decks filled and because it looks more efficient. So we're agreed that Naval Aviation could be healthier--just not what the indicators of health are. What's the cure? Certainly not shutting down the reserve hardware units. The defense budget has been decreasing as a percentage of the total federal budget for a long time and there's no reason to suspect that it won't continue to decrease. Even if the money from the reserves is absorbed into the active duty coffers, it will only serve as a band aid fix. And without extra capability to fund, congress will continue to shave off dollars in the years ahead because they will have no reason not to. The net result will be (a) "Termination" of the Navy's "insurance policy" (such as VFA-201 provided for CVW-8 this year) and (b) Loss of 60% of the Navy's adversary players (all reserve squadrons right now). Because of the lack of adversary units, (and the fact that in the last 3 "wars" that there was no credible air-to-air threat) the case will be made that air-to-air training syllabi can be decreased and/or civilian units flying CAT III aircraft will be brought in to augment the VFC's. This "cart before the horse" mentality will certainly work in the short term, but will leave Naval aviators ill-prepared for conflicts involving better equipped and more serious forces. Sounds a lot like "the sky is falling." It's not, but it's getting a whole lot darker. --Woody |
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![]() "Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" wrote in message ... On 7/4/03 8:43 PM, in article , "Giz" wrote: No? The airframe transfer shellgame between deploying squadrons and those just returning has ended? No sarcasm there. If that has ended, then the VFA's are doing well, but the last I heard was that returning squadrons were being picked apart to bring the deployers up to full strength. I agree that we should SAU all communities that need it. If that allows VFA and/or VF to remain as Reserve Squadrons great, but we do need to end the cycle of aircraft transfers. Giz From an idealist's standpoint, I agree with you... but after 17 years of experience in Naval Air, I've observed that post-deployment airframe transfers are the norm. More commonly, a squadron would put their jets into preservation for 1-2 months after coming back from deployment and lose parts support. In Hornet squadrons (because each squadron typically flies only 1 or 2 lots of jets (e.g. mine flies 8's and 9's) preservation is more common than transfers. What I'm saying is that in the TACAIR communities, airframe transfers are not necessarily a gauge of health because Naval Air has been unhealthy from a parts and airframes standpoint ever since I was an Ensign. It may not mean as much as it did in my community. At one time each squadron "pretty much" owned their planes. Transfers were infrequent. The upkeep these planes got was great. As we lost airframes to hours or mods the transfer game began. Rarely did you get another squadron's gem. A lot of maint hours went into bringing those planes up to a true FMC status. They were transferred up, but you know, kind of up. As I look back, that time was the first signal that we were headed for trouble. That I believe is the cause of my prejudice against a policy of transfers. There's nothing like ownership to encourage upkeep. That's more of a motivator than any CO could come up with. I know that this thread is about the possibility of losing that ownership in Navairres. I guess each side will be arguing that they should be the "haves" and not the "have nots". I hope the right choice is made, and I'm glad I don't have to make it. Giz A better indicator might be the number of airplanes air wings deploy with. On my first cruise, an air wing had 90 aircraft. My most recent cruise: 70. That's all funding-driven. Sure we still have 46-50 bomb-droppers, but we could have more (i.e. an even better tooth-to-tail) if the budget would allow it. The leadership has allowed (even promoted) the decrease to keep aircraft carrier decks filled and because it looks more efficient. So we're agreed that Naval Aviation could be healthier--just not what the indicators of health are. What's the cure? Certainly not shutting down the reserve hardware units. The defense budget has been decreasing as a percentage of the total federal budget for a long time and there's no reason to suspect that it won't continue to decrease. Even if the money from the reserves is absorbed into the active duty coffers, it will only serve as a band aid fix. And without extra capability to fund, congress will continue to shave off dollars in the years ahead because they will have no reason not to. The net result will be (a) "Termination" of the Navy's "insurance policy" (such as VFA-201 provided for CVW-8 this year) and (b) Loss of 60% of the Navy's adversary players (all reserve squadrons right now). Because of the lack of adversary units, (and the fact that in the last 3 "wars" that there was no credible air-to-air threat) the case will be made that air-to-air training syllabi can be decreased and/or civilian units flying CAT III aircraft will be brought in to augment the VFC's. This "ca rt before the horse" mentality will certainly work in the short term, but will leave Naval aviators ill-prepared for conflicts involving better equipped and more serious forces. Sounds a lot like "the sky is falling." It's not, but it's getting a whole lot darker. --Woody |
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Excellent point about ownership, and a good lesson in leadership.
"Giz" wrote in message ... It may not mean as much as it did in my community. At one time each squadron "pretty much" owned their planes. Transfers were infrequent. The upkeep these planes got was great. As we lost airframes to hours or mods the transfer game began. Rarely did you get another squadron's gem. A lot of maint hours went into bringing those planes up to a true FMC status. They were transferred up, but you know, kind of up. As I look back, that time was the first signal that we were headed for trouble. That I believe is the cause of my prejudice against a policy of transfers. There's nothing like ownership to encourage upkeep. That's more of a motivator than any CO could come up with. . |
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Because of the lack of adversary units, (and the fact that in the last 3
"wars" that there was no credible air-to-air threat) the case will be made that air-to-air training syllabi can be decreased and/or civilian units flying CAT III aircraft will be brought in to augment the VFC's. This "cart before the horse" mentality will certainly work in the short term, but will leave Naval aviators ill-prepared for conflicts involving better equipped and more serious forces. From my amateur perspective, I'd say you nailed it elegantly and eloquently. Some guys at the top seem to be suffering from the delusion that these latest wars were high-intensity conflicts. Certainly, as you know infinitely better than I do, there were a huge number of sorties and flight hours, but I fear that the next one might be quite different. I'd say high-intensity would be when you have a foe really trying to get his fangs in your throat, when the planning and scenarios last about half an hour before you get into crisis management (and stay there till the very end), and you start getting some punches back. And it does not even need to be more than what geopolitically amounts to a skirmish. Lets say that something starts some serious exchange of fire in the Taiwan straits. The CV battle group that's never far from there may be caught in that for a few days while some serious worldwide diplomacy unravels it. And the state and score of the disengaging CV will have monumental political repercussions both in there and back at home. For me, professional, in-house adversary work always meant you will fight the way you train, and if you train really seriously, you'll be prepared. Otherwise you'll have to get over the learning curve amidst the bullets and the rockets, which a) takes time and b) is bloody. And you may very well not have the a), and b) might be more than we can manage in the practical world. Can the USN take a couple of Silkworms on a couple of CVs, and have them limp home with some serious CVW losses and still be in a situation where it is able to function? And I'm talking about the homefront in here, not about the courage and dedication of the service members. To have people train with "amateurs" for Gulf War III, makes me very uneasy... _____________ José Herculano |
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![]() "Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" wrote in message ... A better indicator might be the number of airplanes air wings deploy with. On my first cruise, an air wing had 90 aircraft. My most recent cruise: 70. That's all funding-driven. Sure we still have 46-50 bomb-droppers, but we could have more (i.e. an even better tooth-to-tail) if the budget would allow it. The leadership has allowed (even promoted) the decrease to keep aircraft carrier decks filled and because it looks more efficient. To key on the last sentence here - I wonder if the cuts that have been proposed are an effort to create a perceived decrease in cost and increase in efficiency. Even flag officers have people above them they have to answer to. Unfortunately, short term challenges may be met with short term solutions which may create long term problems. [snipped bits here] The net result will be (a) "Termination" of the Navy's "insurance policy" (such as VFA-201 provided for CVW-8 this year) and (b) Loss of 60% of the Navy's adversary players (all reserve squadrons right now). Because of the lack of adversary units, (and the fact that in the last 3 "wars" that there was no credible air-to-air threat) the case will be made that air-to-air training syllabi can be decreased and/or civilian units flying CAT III aircraft will be brought in to augment the VFC's. This "cart before the horse" mentality will certainly work in the short term, but will leave Naval aviators ill-prepared for conflicts involving better equipped and more serious forces. I recall hearing about a company in Florida that advertised adversary services ( http://www.aerogroupinc.com/welcome.html ). Good, bad, or ugly, I can't say. Could such a company step in and effectively fill the need for adversary training? Perhaps. Might this be what the leadership is looking at when they consider disestablishing reserve squadrons currently filling that role? Would this create a perception of budget savings - would it "look more efficient"? The question of whether a private company can fill this roll is interesting. Contractors may have a somewhat checkered reputation, though such a contractor would have to hire the same kind of people who would have manned a reserve squadron. Issues this raises are - 1. The loss of corporate knowledge for the strike community. 2. Can a civilian company hire and retain quality people and ensure the training provided will meet the needs of the fleet? Regarding the strike community, I think the loss of "corporate knowledge" and effective training is a serious issue. While diminishing this capability may save a few dollars in the short term, my feeling is that the bill will come due in the long term. This bill will likely be paid in blood. In the face of proposed cuts, this thread has identified a number of problems. I'll venture some ideas for some solutions: (when the term "reserve" is used, assume it includes the guard as well, when applicable.) 1. War fighters (NOT exclusively strike). Keep the reserves alive. Retain good people and hard earned corporate knowledge in a robust environment where it can be applied and the people in the fleet can reap the benefits of training from experienced, motivated peers. 2. Logistics can be contracted to civilian companies. "Ash and trash" is not a war-fighting specialty, and there are plenty of companies in business right now that can provide aerial logistics capability. This would eliminate the need for NAVAIRES C-9 and C-130 squadrons. How much money would be saved if the replacement of C-9s with 737s was scrapped? Reserve C-12s and the Gulfstream squadron in DC could be disestablished and their roles be outsourced as well. 3. VP, HS, HSL. There are missions close to home, homeland security being a new priority, that these communities can support, especially now with many of our active (and reserve!!) forces deployed. A revised mission statement, along with revised funding priorities would make these units invaluable assets for homeland and western hemisphere tasking - an ideal role for reserve assets. If HS and HSL still have to be eliminated, send the budget savings to the Coast Guard. The revised mission statement: decreased emphasis on ASW and an increased emphasis on patrol, surveillance, and reconnaissance. 4. Create (and support!!) reserve units of experienced reserve personnel who can be utilized in the training and operational augmentation of active units. 5. All service branches get together to determine how their respective reserve resources can be best coordinated and utilized to create a more comprehensive and effective supporting force structure. My 2 cents.....OK, maybe more than 2 cents, how about 2 bits? Eric Scheie |
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Well done. Very well written post.
The loss of Naval Air Reserve hardware units would be a tragedy. It is a short-sighted move initiated not by the politicians (like GWB as has been suggested) but by the active duty Flag Officers. Unfortunately, the casualty will be the cost-effective "insurance policy" and professional adversary elements of Naval Aviation. Don't think for a moment that the VFC's can handle all of the commitments. VFC's cover SFARP's, but the FRS's have relied heavily on the reserve VFA's to be their bogies. By the way, this is no surprise to those of us in the reserves. Ever since the separate appropriation line for the Naval Reserves was melded into the active duty's line, this has only been a matter of time. For the last two years, they've been trying to write VFA-203 out of the budget and in the short term, this year, it looks as if they've succeeded. The only thing that will keep USNR air alive will be heavy congressional involvement. --Woody On 7/4/03 3:07 PM, in article , "Eric Scheie" wrote: Mr. Kambic makes some good points below, and the first paragraph of his I left below is very true. The Navy has never quite seemed to been able to integrate its reserve forces in the manner that the USAF has, even with the drawdown after Desert Storm, when the reserves became a greater percentage of the total force. The last USNR squadron I was in had spent the last few years conducting 6 month deployments aboard ship. Unheard of not long before. What are some advantages of a robust reserve force? A typical RESFORON is manned by aviators with an average of ten or more years of experience. These aviators come at a cost of about 1/3 of their active duty counterparts. They leave active duty for a variety of reasons, but allowing them to continue to serve in a reserve capacity enables the Navy to retain experienced people at a low cost. People who can be mobilized in time of national crisis. It's a face card in the back pocket of the leadership. I think someone made a statement that getting rid of some of the RESFORONS will free up airframes for active duty squadrons.To me, that reasoning sounds like a poor Band-Aid for an airframe availability problem. The airframes the reserves get are usually the beaters and cast-offs from the active duty. (It took a good deal of scraping to find FOUR airframes to stand up HSL-60, all of which were put through rework before being sent to the squadron.) Decimating reserve squadrons is not going to solve the woes of the active duty side of nav air. As Mr. Kambic alluded to in his second paragraph below, it may, in fact, lead to other problems in the future. If getting rid of RESFORONS, hardware, and people, is seen as a solution to budget problems, I think there may some more serious, underlying issues at work. Is there waste in the Naval Reserve? A certain amount exists on both sides of the fence, and it becomes a matter of where you want to shine the spotlight, your point of view, and your ability to spin. One plan I have heard suggested is that reserve aircrews become part of "augment units" that support active duty squadrons. This raised a few questions, and I don't recall if they were really answered. How are the reserve aircrews funded? Who will manage their continued training and operating within the active duty squadrons? Could such a plan work? I think so, but only if the active duty squadrons see the reserves as a benefit to them. Of course, as with any plan, the one that started this whole thread could change by next week. In the end we shall see what we shall see. Just my 2 cents. Eric Scheie "Bill Kambic" wrote in message ... More to the point, loss of an internal Reserve hardware capability is unlikely to EVER return. The RESFORONS have always been "poor relations" but made do with what they had and sometimes embarassed Active Duty types in head to head competition. The Active Duty types have, in my personal presence, often noted the vast "wastage" of funds on the Reserve hardware units. (To be completely fair, a fair number have also "looked behind the curtain" and seen the reasons why hardware units are a Very Good Thing.) The likelyhood of facing the hords of the Red Army (or the late, unlamented Soviet Navy) is very small. But there are still places where you can lose a bunch of aircraft and people in a hurry and have to replace them the same way (a "dust up" in North Korea comes to mind). The complexity of modern aircraft means that the "WWII Approach" of 90 day wonder to Fleet Fighter Pilot in a year (or so) is unlikely to EVER be seen again. This means that you have to have a "well" of trained people to draw on in time of crisis. The REFORON/SRU hardware units filled that need. When they "go away" so will a cheap solution to an expensive problem. Bill Kambic Formerly of VS-73 (the SRU part whose numbers escape me) and VP-93 (ditto), NAF Detroit, 1974-1978 |
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