FES underpowered for 18m ship?

In order to climb out of deep valley with limited exit is problem that 99% of pilots will never have, and those 1% should reconsider another sport. This is not a problem meant to be solved with tiny engines.

Again, this depends on where you fly. I fly out of Truckee usually, and a typical retrieve is from Carson City as I mentioned. It is only 20 miles away, but with a 4000 ft high ridge in between. 100% of the pilots flying cross country out of Truckee will have this problem eventually. It isn't dangerous - a perfectly good airport at Carson - but electric sustainers in their current state of development will not support that retrieve, but an ICE will. There are countless other similar examples in the Great Basin area of a "deep valley with limited exit" - and a good landing site at the bottom. If you don't fly over these, you don't fly in this area. That is not to say the electric isn't useful (and I didn't say that), just that it has limitations in some terrain that the ICE may not (as in the Alps example mentioned above).

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 12:53:30 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
In order to climb out of deep valley with limited exit is problem that 99% of pilots will never have, and those 1% should reconsider another sport. This is not a problem meant to be solved with tiny engines.

John, for the Carson relight you are correct if one waits until pattern altitude at Carson. However the strategy should be to relight over spooner the moment you down to your minimum altitude, say 9K. You will need a short run and only 1-2K climb to get to a safe final glide altitude. If you run out of battery before hand you can escape back to Carson.
At least this is what I would do if I have FES.

Ramy

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 11:11:26 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
John, for the Carson relight you are correct if one waits until pattern altitude at Carson. However the strategy should be to relight over spooner the moment you down to your minimum altitude, say 9K. You will need a short run and only 1-2K climb to get to a safe final glide altitude. If you run out of battery before hand you can escape back to Carson.
At least this is what I would do if I have FES.

Ramy

Hi Ramy. Is this what happened last month when you had an FES failure and landed on the golf course in incline?

Something like:
- flies over east lake tahoe
- "getting low, here we go!"
- goes to turn the FES knob
- "dang, did I really leave my FES at the factory?"
- wing meets bush

Just wondering since I can't think of any other plausible explanation to why someone would go where you went at the altitude you were at without some engine or a will to die.

Cumungus wrote on 9/15/2020 2:31 PM:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 11:11:26 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
John, for the Carson relight you are correct if one waits until pattern altitude at Carson. However the strategy should be to relight over spooner the moment you down to your minimum altitude, say 9K. You will need a short run and only 1-2K climb to get to a safe final glide altitude. If you run out of battery before hand you can escape back to Carson.
At least this is what I would do if I have FES.

Ramy

Hi Ramy. Is this what happened last month when you had an FES failure and landed on the golf course in incline?

Something like:
- flies over east lake tahoe
- "getting low, here we go!"
- goes to turn the FES knob
- "dang, did I really leave my FES at the factory?"
- wing meets bush

Just wondering since I can't think of any other plausible explanation to why someone would go where you went at the altitude you were at without some engine or a will to die.

You sound upset. Did Ramy's explanation offend you in some way? I thought he
provided a good description of the situation, which is something we rarely get, as
the pilot is either dead or unwilling to talk.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Cumungus, you forgot to sign your name, so I need to ask: Do you fly from Truckee? Are you familiar with the area, the return methods, ridge soaring spots and landout options? Did you walk the golf course before?
I believe I answered all your questions in my detailed “I screwed up� report. Will you do the same if you screw up, and sign your name?
And back to the subject, using the FES as I described will eliminate this risk completely. Just make your rule of minimum safe altitude at spooner and stick to your rule and you will never need to land in the golf course. And no, one should not enter as low as I did relying on engine. It is not any safer than relying on ridge lift.

Ramy

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 6:02:32 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
relying on engine... is not any safer than relying on ridge lift.

Its considerably less safe...

Dave Nadler wrote on 9/15/2020 3:12 PM:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 6:02:32 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
relying on engine... is not any safer than relying on ridge lift.

Its considerably less safe...

You must read the ridges much better than I do :^)

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Yes, that would work. You need a different strategy (and perhaps different discipline) with the FES vs. an ICE. I usually keep trying until I'm a bit over pattern altitude, then fire. There are some other scenarios such as storm cells over intended destination, land somewhere and wait it out, then continue but these are admittedly rare. I believe every retrieve I have done in flying my ASH at Truckee for 20 years would have been as easily done with an FES. Now it just needs to self launch to 3000 AGL and still be able to do those retrieves, and charge itself somehow on the line overnight.

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 11:11:26 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
John, for the Carson relight you are correct if one waits until pattern altitude at Carson. However the strategy should be to relight over spooner the moment you down to your minimum altitude, say 9K. You will need a short run and only 1-2K climb to get to a safe final glide altitude. If you run out of battery before hand you can escape back to Carson.
At least this is what I would do if I have FES.

Ramy