Best Overall Motorglider available today?

Not at all sure I'd consider having to lug heavy batteries out of the
glider,
putting them in a car, transporting them and then recharging them in
your RV/Gite/hotel/hangar/caravan/whatever could be viewed as a
universally good solution.
Then reversing the process next morning?

Simply plugging a single mains power lead into the Antares type 'battery
in wing' is a bit simpler, no? (The Antares has a built in charger system).

Plus if the whole shooting match bursts into flames it's not in your
RV/car/hotel/Gite......

Some European gliding clubs even now do not allow electric gliders to be
charged in their club hangars: fire risk, insurance problems?

Interesting times.

On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 4:14:01 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
...Those with removable battery packs are on the right path for general use..
Those with built in batteries are not seeing the big picture clearly..

Seriously? Removable batteries are heavy and susceptible to damage (as proven).

On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 7:47:08 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
I don’t think anyone mentioned the AS34ME. While not available yet, it sounds like it has good potential. The web site claims total of 9000+ feet of potential climb, or 2000 self launch and 75 miles range using it as a sustainer, which is pretty much double the FES capability.
I am not clear on the charging process. Since the batteries are in the wing, it sounds like you can’t recharge between flights without taking the wings apart?
Will be interesting to hear thoughts if this is a good candidate for best overall motorglider?

Ramy
The specs for the '34 leave me wanting. Regarding performance, I would rather fly my wonderful LS8-18 or an 18m Discus 2, I doubt the '34 can keep up with those gliders. Pricing is shockingly high, the '34 will run you fully equipped and delivered in a metal trailer close to $200k. In Europe, it is marketed as a "Genussflieger" or pleasure glider for club pilots. You'd be very likely disappointed, Ramy.

The price tag of close to 200K for a new self launcher does not surprise me as I don’t think you can’t find much cheaper for any new motorglider?
What surprises me is the expectation that the 34 will not perform as well as the top standard class such as LS8 and Discus 2 and is marketed as a club glider. After all the claim of 48:1 glide ratio is as high as you can expect from a non flap ship, which is not bad. So why do you expect it will not perform as well?
I wonder why they don’t offer the same option in the 33?
I would like to hear thoughts on it.
As for why I did not switch to a motorglider myself so far, part of it is enjoying the “pure� and adventure aspect of pure gliders, part is that in the places I fly and with the support I have, pure gliders worked well for me, part is shying away from complexity, maintainace and extra cost. But I am getting older, and electric solution appeal the most to me, but I haven’t found the silver lining I am looking for so far.

Ramy

On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 1:40:52 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
The price tag of close to 200K for a new self launcher does not surprise me as I don’t think you can’t find much cheaper for any new motorglider?
What surprises me is the expectation that the 34 will not perform as well as the top standard class such as LS8 and Discus 2 and is marketed as a club glider. After all the claim of 48:1 glide ratio is as high as you can expect from a non flap ship, which is not bad. So why do you expect it will not perform as well?
I wonder why they don’t offer the same option in the 33?
I would like to hear thoughts on it.
As for why I did not switch to a motorglider myself so far, part of it is enjoying the “pure� and adventure aspect of pure gliders, part is that in the places I fly and with the support I have, pure gliders worked well for me, part is shying away from complexity, maintainace and extra cost. But I am getting older, and electric solution appeal the most to me, but I haven’t found the silver lining I am looking for so far.

Ramy

'33 has a very small wing which would lead to a very high minimum wing loading. Additionally, fitting the batteries in the wings and getting a water system in the thin wing would(will?) be a real challenge.
FWIW
UH

On Monday, 12 October 2020 at 20:40:52 UTC+3, Ramy wrote:
The price tag of close to 200K for a new self launcher does not surprise me as I don’t think you can’t find much cheaper for any new motorglider?
What surprises me is the expectation that the 34 will not perform as well as the top standard class such as LS8 and Discus 2 and is marketed as a club glider. After all the claim of 48:1 glide ratio is as high as you can expect from a non flap ship, which is not bad. So why do you expect it will not perform as well?
I wonder why they don’t offer the same option in the 33?
I would like to hear thoughts on it.
As for why I did not switch to a motorglider myself so far, part of it is enjoying the “pure� and adventure aspect of pure gliders, part is that in the places I fly and with the support I have, pure gliders worked well for me, part is shying away from complexity, maintainace and extra cost. But I am getting older, and electric solution appeal the most to me, but I haven’t found the silver lining I am looking for so far.

Ramy

To be totally honest, pilots who contemplate over performance differences between LS8-18, D2c and AS34 are not going to fly a mile longer or knot faster with any of these types, or with LS4 for that matter. We are talking about gliders that are sold to sunday afternoon pilots doing 99% of the time few hour pleasure flights. Who cares if one of these is 0.001% better and 81..3 knot "speed range" than other?

If you want a glider that goes, you need to look at 18m racers such as V3, JS3 or AS33.

The difference between gliders designed in the last 20 years is quite small.. Some of the difference is explainable by wing loading. Here are the handicaps used in the US for a sample of gliders (in the US, lower numbers are faster):

JS3 - 0.83
ASH31-18 - 0.835
V3 - 0.84
ASG29-18 - 0.845
V2b-18 - 0.85
ASH26 - 0.855
LS6c-18 - 0.868
ASW27 - 0.878
LS8-18. - 0.88
Vb16.6 - 0.883

That means that on an 80 knot average day for the JS3, the ASH26 will do 78, and an LS8-18 75 knots. Put another way in a 4 hours flight the JS3 will arrive 7 minutes ahead of the ASH26 and 14 minutes ahead of the LS8. That is a lot of time in a race, but for pleasure flying nearly nothing. 7 minutes will be lost or gained many times in a 4 hour flight by luck or skill. If the 26 is leaching the JS3 it will be slowly left behind (which may be mentally disheartening, even if the difference is small) but will still be within Flarm range by the end of the day. If the S3 is loaded to 12 lbs/ft the difference is much greater - but primarily due to wing loading, not aerodynamic design. The science was pretty far advanced even 20 years ago. There has been more gained by increasing wing loadings than wing profiles. If you are racing at top levels, or the money is of little consequence to you, then by all means the newest gliders are faster. For the rest of us, hard to find the value proposition.

On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 1:02:34 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
On Monday, 12 October 2020 at 20:40:52 UTC+3, Ramy wrote:
The price tag of close to 200K for a new self launcher does not surprise me as I don’t think you can’t find much cheaper for any new motorglider?
What surprises me is the expectation that the 34 will not perform as well as the top standard class such as LS8 and Discus 2 and is marketed as a club glider. After all the claim of 48:1 glide ratio is as high as you can expect from a non flap ship, which is not bad. So why do you expect it will not perform as well?
I wonder why they don’t offer the same option in the 33?
I would like to hear thoughts on it.
As for why I did not switch to a motorglider myself so far, part of it is enjoying the “pure� and adventure aspect of pure gliders, part is that in the places I fly and with the support I have, pure gliders worked well for me, part is shying away from complexity, maintainace and extra cost. But I am getting older, and electric solution appeal the most to me, but I haven’t found the silver lining I am looking for so far..

Ramy
To be totally honest, pilots who contemplate over performance differences between LS8-18, D2c and AS34 are not going to fly a mile longer or knot faster with any of these types, or with LS4 for that matter. We are talking about gliders that are sold to sunday afternoon pilots doing 99% of the time few hour pleasure flights. Who cares if one of these is 0.001% better and 81.3 knot "speed range" than other?

If you want a glider that goes, you need to look at 18m racers such as V3, JS3 or AS33.

The ASH 26E is actually a 27+ year old design, since the first US delivery was in 1994, meaning
the design was completed at least a year earlier. Also 27+ years for the ASW27.

jfitch wrote on 10/14/2020 10:12 AM:
The difference between gliders designed in the last 20 years is quite small.. Some of the difference is explainable by wing loading. Here are the handicaps used in the US for a sample of gliders (in the US, lower numbers are faster):

JS3 - 0.83
ASH31-18 - 0.835
V3 - 0.84
ASG29-18 - 0.845
V2b-18 - 0.85
ASH26 - 0.855
LS6c-18 - 0.868
ASW27 - 0.878
LS8-18. - 0.88
Vb16.6 - 0.883

That means that on an 80 knot average day for the JS3, the ASH26 will do 78, and an LS8-18 75 knots. Put another way in a 4 hours flight the JS3 will arrive 7 minutes ahead of the ASH26 and 14 minutes ahead of the LS8. That is a lot of time in a race, but for pleasure flying nearly nothing. 7 minutes will be lost or gained many times in a 4 hour flight by luck or skill. If the 26 is leaching the JS3 it will be slowly left behind (which may be mentally disheartening, even if the difference is small) but will still be within Flarm range by the end of the day. If the S3 is loaded to 12 lbs/ft the difference is much greater - but primarily due to wing loading, not aerodynamic design. The science was pretty far advanced even 20 years ago. There has been more gained by increasing wing loadings than wing profiles. If you are racing at top levels, or the money is of little consequence to you, then by all means the newest gliders are faster. For the rest of us, hard to find the value proposition.

On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 1:02:34 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
On Monday, 12 October 2020 at 20:40:52 UTC+3, Ramy wrote:
The price tag of close to 200K for a new self launcher does not surprise me as I don’t think you can’t find much cheaper for any new motorglider?
What surprises me is the expectation that the 34 will not perform as well as the top standard class such as LS8 and Discus 2 and is marketed as a club glider. After all the claim of 48:1 glide ratio is as high as you can expect from a non flap ship, which is not bad. So why do you expect it will not perform as well?
I wonder why they don’t offer the same option in the 33?
I would like to hear thoughts on it.
As for why I did not switch to a motorglider myself so far, part of it is enjoying the “pure” and adventure aspect of pure gliders, part is that in the places I fly and with the support I have, pure gliders worked well for me, part is shying away from complexity, maintainace and extra cost. But I am getting older, and electric solution appeal the most to me, but I haven’t found the silver lining I am looking for so far..

Ramy
To be totally honest, pilots who contemplate over performance differences between LS8-18, D2c and AS34 are not going to fly a mile longer or knot faster with any of these types, or with LS4 for that matter. We are talking about gliders that are sold to sunday afternoon pilots doing 99% of the time few hour pleasure flights. Who cares if one of these is 0.001% better and 81.3 knot "speed range" than other?

If you want a glider that goes, you need to look at 18m racers such as V3, JS3 or AS33.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Interesting discussion. I recall an anecdote I heard from a EB29E pilot,
she described the evening after flight discussions at a well known
Namibian site.
She said "the glider pilots sat around after dinner and discussed their
flights, the motor glider pilots sat around and discussed engines".
Says it all really!
Dave W



At 17:12 14 October 2020, jfitch wrote:
The difference between gliders designed in the last 20 years is quite
small=
.. Some of the difference is explainable by wing loading. Here are the
handi=
caps used in the US for a sample of gliders (in the US, lower numbers
are
f=
aster):

JS3 - 0.83
ASH31-18 - 0.835
V3 - 0.84
ASG29-18 - 0.845
V2b-18 - 0.85
ASH26 - 0.855
LS6c-18 - 0.868
ASW27 - 0.878
LS8-18. - 0.88
Vb16.6 - 0.883

That means that on an 80 knot average day for the JS3, the ASH26
will do
78=
, and an LS8-18 75 knots. Put another way in a 4 hours flight the JS3
will
=
arrive 7 minutes ahead of the ASH26 and 14 minutes ahead of the
LS8. That
i=
s a lot of time in a race, but for pleasure flying nearly nothing. 7
minute=
s will be lost or gained many times in a 4 hour flight by luck or skill.
If=
the 26 is leaching the JS3 it will be slowly left behind (which may be
men=
tally disheartening, even if the difference is small) but will still be
wit=
hin Flarm range by the end of the day. If the S3 is loaded to 12 lbs/ft
the=
difference is much greater - but primarily due to wing loading, not
aerody=
namic design. The science was pretty far advanced even 20 years
ago. There
=
has been more gained by increasing wing loadings than wing profiles.
If
you=
are racing at top levels, or the money is of little consequence to you,
th=
en by all means the newest gliders are faster. For the rest of us, hard
to
=
find the value proposition.=20

On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 1:02:34 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
On Monday, 12 October 2020 at 20:40:52 UTC+3, Ramy wrote:=20
The price tag of close to 200K for a new self launcher does not
surpris=
e me as I don=E2=80=99t think you can=E2=80=99t find much
cheaper for any
n=
ew motorglider?=20
What surprises me is the expectation that the 34 will not perform
as
we=
ll as the top standard class such as LS8 and Discus 2 and is marketed
as a
=
club glider. After all the claim of 48:1 glide ratio is as high as you
can
=
expect from a non flap ship, which is not bad. So why do you expect it
will=
not perform as well?=20
I wonder why they don=E2=80=99t offer the same option in the
33?=20
I would like to hear thoughts on it.=20
As for why I did not switch to a motorglider myself so far, part of
it
=
is enjoying the =E2=80=9Cpure=E2=80=9D and adventure aspect of
pure
gliders=
, part is that in the places I fly and with the support I have, pure
glider=
s worked well for me, part is shying away from complexity,
maintainace and
=
extra cost. But I am getting older, and electric solution appeal the
most
t=
o me, but I haven=E2=80=99t found the silver lining I am looking for
so
far=
..=20
=20
Ramy
To be totally honest, pilots who contemplate over performance
differences=
between LS8-18, D2c and AS34 are not going to fly a mile longer or
knot
fa=
ster with any of these types, or with LS4 for that matter. We are
talking
a=
bout gliders that are sold to sunday afternoon pilots doing 99% of the
time=
few hour pleasure flights. Who cares if one of these is 0.001% better
and
=
81.3 knot "speed range" than other?=20
=20
If you want a glider that goes, you need to look at 18m racers such
as
V3=
, JS3 or AS33.

I couldn’t agree less with the notion that you need a top racer to go anywhere. It may be the case in contest racing where every small performance advantage is significant, but the performance difference is insignificant for the rest of cross country flights. You May fly few miles less or few mph slower. I agree it wouldn’t matter for those who fly locally, but a significant number of pilots such as myself don’t fly contests or records but fly aggressive cross country as you can see on OLC. The AS34 should be marketed for this significant segment of soaring pilots, not for clubs and local fliers.

Ramy