The Apology

On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-4, Chip Bearden wrote:
Next time, try it my way: warmly and without a trace of annoyance introduce yourself.

T8
Evan, next time, try it the new enlightened way: warmly and without a trace of condescension or presumption, inquire of Cindy for more details about what happened and how she conducted herself that day before judging (and insulting) her. Your assumption that this was somehow her fault says everything about what's wrong with this thread.

Years ago (OK, decades), I showed up for a big spring contest with my new ASW 24 after being out of soaring for a few years. I had met the contest manager in the past but he didn't seem to remember me because when I asked about tiedown spots, he brushed me off fairly rudely. I was a little startled but, hey, this was his contest so I stepped back. About that time, Rudy Mozer came rushing over and greeted me like a long-lost friend (which we were; we went back to the 1960s). All of a sudden, the contest manager was treating me like a VIP. I thought it was funny. But if every time I showed up for a contest I had to explain I was a pilot and not a spectator, it would probalby get old pretty soon. I hope I would behave properly each time but I also hope I would be forgiven for occasionally expressing frustration, not that anything Cindy said implied that she did so in this case.

Chip Bearden
JB

Hey Chip:

You are imagining a whole truckload of stuff that just ain't true.

My suggestion to Cindy was honest, forthright and made in 100% good faith. I have done just as I have suggested myself (slights can happen to men too, as your own experience confirms). It worked great. I have witnesses.

T8

Hey, do you guys remember the good old days? You know, when all the controversy seemed to surround somebody named Sean?

On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 10:13:29 PM UTC-7, Brian Lott wrote:
Hey, do you guys remember the good old days? You know, when all the controversy seemed to surround somebody named Sean?


The ad could best described as tone deaf. That was obviously not the intent, but it was the result. Male chauvinism is often subtle, and men are not particularly skilled in recognizing its presence. Pointing out chauvinistic behavior is the role of women, and that is what happened here. I say bravo! for them and shame on their detractors.

On Monday, October 26, 2020 at 2:24:34 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 10:13:29 PM UTC-7, Brian Lott wrote:
Hey, do you guys remember the good old days? You know, when all the controversy seemed to surround somebody named Sean?
The ad could best described as tone deaf. That was obviously not the intent, but it was the result. Male chauvinism is often subtle, and men are not particularly skilled in recognizing its presence. Pointing out chauvinistic behavior is the role of women, and that is what happened here. I say bravo! for them and shame on their detractors.

What is chauvinistic about the ad? If that ad is unacceptable in Soaring magazine then how can they publish any images of humans? If a women solos and there is a post flight photo of a male instructor congratulating her would that be as bad as the ad? Worse? How would anyone but these few women know a photo was offensive before publishing? I look forward to Soaring magazine with blue dots over the heads of people that have made soaring achievements and pixelated fuzziness on the canopies of flying gliders. Maybe not blue dots those are from the 80's and might offend, instead NPC emoticons over everyone's head. NPC emoticons are more with the times and more appropriate for our community.

I mean if you don't think you're chauvinistic by calling women "childless corporate whores" or telling them they'd be "more attractive by keeping their mouth shut", you probably wont get it?

Growing up at the gliderport, my club hosted the WSPA Seminar when I was 13.. I had the opportunity to meet women from across the country with varied backgrounds and a single common interest - soaring. Since that time, my first practical test was with a female DPE, I've flown a contest in a double seater with a woman who is now an accomplished Army aviator, I've flown with a female teammate at the Junior Worlds that is now a director at one of the largest defense contractors in the country and shared thermals with several others at clubs and contests around the world. Professionally, I've worked with several corporate pilots who happen to be female as well. They come in and do their job, meet the standards as set out by the FAA - just like everyone else is expected to. Some are single, some are married, some are divorced. Some have kids, some do not. They're living their life as they see fit.

Most of the women that I have met in soaring were involved with WSPA. They've all come away with positive experiences, whether they were pre-solo or well into cross-country, contests and badges. My own daughter just turned 13 and is taking lessons. We signed her up as a member of WSPA a couple months ago and I'll be making a donation in honor of this thread to help support the next generation of "childless corporate whores" as you call them. There's a good chance a young woman that started out at the local gliderport, fostered by a WSPA seminar or scholarship could be that Captain on your next airline flight, defending our country over the skies of a foreign country or possibly the next person on the Moon or the first person on Mars. That's pretty f*#@ing awesome.

Mike Westbrook

On Monday, October 26, 2020 at 11:12:53 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I mean if you don't think you're chauvinistic by calling women "childless corporate whores" or telling them they'd be "more attractive by keeping their mouth shut", you probably wont get it?

Growing up at the gliderport, my club hosted the WSPA Seminar when I was 13. I had the opportunity to meet women from across the country with varied backgrounds and a single common interest - soaring. Since that time, my first practical test was with a female DPE, I've flown a contest in a double seater with a woman who is now an accomplished Army aviator, I've flown with a female teammate at the Junior Worlds that is now a director at one of the largest defense contractors in the country and shared thermals with several others at clubs and contests around the world. Professionally, I've worked with several corporate pilots who happen to be female as well. They come in and do their job, meet the standards as set out by the FAA - just like everyone else is expected to. Some are single, some are married, some are divorced. Some have kids, some do not. They're living their life as they see fit.

Most of the women that I have met in soaring were involved with WSPA. They've all come away with positive experiences, whether they were pre-solo or well into cross-country, contests and badges. My own daughter just turned 13 and is taking lessons. We signed her up as a member of WSPA a couple months ago and I'll be making a donation in honor of this thread to help support the next generation of "childless corporate whores" as you call them. There's a good chance a young woman that started out at the local gliderport, fostered by a WSPA seminar or scholarship could be that Captain on your next airline flight, defending our country over the skies of a foreign country or possibly the next person on the Moon or the first person on Mars. That's pretty f*#@ing awesome.

Mike Westbrook
That is a lot of words Mike, now try again and explain what is chauvinistic about the ad in Soaring magazine. Anyone? Not my responses, the original ad, what was chauvinistic about the original Soaring ad that set these women off? Spell it out. Since the ad was outrageous enough to generate multiple complaints it should be easy to explain. Even if I am unable to get it you may enlighten some other RAS readers and win new allies.

That is a lot of words Mike, now try again and explain what is chauvinistic about the ad in Soaring magazine. Anyone? Not my responses, the original ad, what was chauvinistic about the original Soaring ad that set these women off? Spell it out. Since the ad was outrageous enough to generate multiple complaints it should be easy to explain. Even if I am unable to get it you may enlighten some other RAS readers and win new allies.


From the link that someone posted very early in this thread, which contained one of the letters to Soaring: "that ad brought back memories of days when women were supposed to be worshipping pilots instead of being pilots."

That's one thing that's chauvinistic about it. I'll go out on a limb and admit that I read right by the ad the first time. It wasn't nearly as outrageous as some things I've seen. I missed it, as did many others, including some women.

But I understand why it resonated the wrong way with other women. As Dale said, it was tone deaf. So I think the SSA was right in acknowledging the mistake and promising to do better. End of story until Bob launched this thread with his tirade about Feminazis undermining everything the SSA stands for.

Greg, there was a full page in Soaring explaining the issue along with an apology. There have been several on here offering an explanation to those who asked. If you don't get it yet... I'm now positive you won't just because others say it again and again. I'd say that's fine if you don't see something deeper in an ad. Everyone has a different experience and world-view, so in that case I'd expect someone mature would move on and say, "I don't get it but whatever, lets go fly gliders".

The bigger problem is that yourself and others who didn't read anything into an advertisement, do think that its ok to call women "childless whores", "Feminazis"and that they "would be more attractive if they kept their mouth shut". So right now, the problem isn't Soaring magazine that offered an explanation and apology. It's you.

This thread absolutely boggles my mind. Many on here use a response that sounds a lot like "I have a black friend". As men, we have to accept the fact that until we walk a mile in the shoes of someone who has "Been there, done that" we will NEVER "get it". So, when someone finds something like that advertisement offensive, what we do is look at it from the best angle we can, try to understand, and accept that maybe it is. There is a reason that you can no longer find Br'er Rabbit, Tom and Jerry, or Dukes of Hazard on TV. My generation may have loved them as kids, however, looking back in hindsight, they are incredibly offensive and have no place in society any more. Just like this advertisement.

I can remember being at a national contest, and someone walking up to some very good friends of mine and asking "Do you ladies work"? I turned around and walked away because I knew this person was about to get destroyed by two extreemly accomplished women who had achieved more in their lives than anyone standing there at that moment. I wish I would have heard the rest of the conversation, but these ladies didn't need me to stand up for them.


Gregg, based on your comments, I can tell you that you, sir, are welcome to leave our community. I don't care how much you have done for it, this thread just set you back 60 years in time and showed you do not have the capability to learn. As a pilot, always being willing to learn something is paramont to safety, no matter what your experience. You have not shown this. Additionally, I will do everything in my power to make sure that you are never welcome at any contest I host, any club or flying location that I fly at, or a part of any orginization that I am also a member of. I may not be able to stop any of this, but I'll sure give it my best attempt to try. Your lack of capability to learn and general attitude cause the label of "Crappy pilot" let alone the comments about "Corperate whore" and "Feminazi" which just lable you as generally ignorant. I can only take solace in the fact that I am young enough I will probobly outlive you, and you will take your miserable attitude to the grave with you where it belongs.

On Monday, October 26, 2020 at 8:12:53 AM UTC-7, Michael Westbrook wrote:
I mean if you don't think you're chauvinistic by calling women "childless corporate whores" or telling them they'd be "more attractive by keeping their mouth shut", you probably wont get it?

Growing up at the gliderport, my club hosted the WSPA Seminar when I was 13. I had the opportunity to meet women from across the country with varied backgrounds and a single common interest - soaring. Since that time, my first practical test was with a female DPE, I've flown a contest in a double seater with a woman who is now an accomplished Army aviator, I've flown with a female teammate at the Junior Worlds that is now a director at one of the largest defense contractors in the country and shared thermals with several others at clubs and contests around the world. Professionally, I've worked with several corporate pilots who happen to be female as well. They come in and do their job, meet the standards as set out by the FAA - just like everyone else is expected to. Some are single, some are married, some are divorced. Some have kids, some do not. They're living their life as they see fit.

Most of the women that I have met in soaring were involved with WSPA. They've all come away with positive experiences, whether they were pre-solo or well into cross-country, contests and badges. My own daughter just turned 13 and is taking lessons. We signed her up as a member of WSPA a couple months ago and I'll be making a donation in honor of this thread to help support the next generation of "childless corporate whores" as you call them. There's a good chance a young woman that started out at the local gliderport, fostered by a WSPA seminar or scholarship could be that Captain on your next airline flight, defending our country over the skies of a foreign country or possibly the next person on the Moon or the first person on Mars. That's pretty f*#@ing awesome.

Mike Westbrook

The only people here who have used the phrase "childless corporate whores" are you and Hugh Grandstaff. If I am wrong, quote it because I have searched and could find no other references.

Tom