Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle

Chris Behm wrote on 10/25/2020 11:23 AM:
I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel)..
But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.


Here's another idea: look at the tow vehicles on the airfield where you will be flying. That
might give you an idea of what is useful in your area. If you do see a 4WD pickup tow vehicle,
chat up the owner, find out why they have it, then get their phone number, just in case you do
land out in a difficult access field. Buy them a beer once in a while, so they think you are
worth retrieving ;^)

Spend more on the glider, less on the tow vehicle - but get one that tows safely on the highway.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 9:57:38 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Chris Behm wrote on 10/25/2020 11:23 AM:
I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel)..
But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.

Here's another idea: look at the tow vehicles on the airfield where you will be flying. That
might give you an idea of what is useful in your area. If you do see a 4WD pickup tow vehicle,
chat up the owner, find out why they have it, then get their phone number, just in case you do
land out in a difficult access field. Buy them a beer once in a while, so they think you are
worth retrieving ;^)

Spend more on the glider, less on the tow vehicle - but get one that tows safely on the highway.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


Thanks to all of you for replying. There is lots of great info here.
I should have been more specific regarding the car vs truck question. I am wondering about outlanding retrieves. Part of me thinks that a truck would be much better, the other parts thinks that most fields that are safely landable by a glider would be able to be traversed by most cars, especially AWD cars.
Being a bit of a frugal guy, I would rather not waste fuel 99% of the time. I suppose I could purchase a dedicated vehicle for towing to a glider event and the possible outlanding recoveries. But it sure would be great to have something double duty that could do both, and be economical when not towing a glider.

What are are the ranges of trailer weights for 15M gliders? I would assume a Libelle in an Eberle trailer would be at the low end of the range. What does that weigh loaded?
How about an 18M span ship, like a Ventus 2 in a Cobra or Comet?

Thanks again, guys.
Try to be nice to each other.....

Very Respectfully,
Target

On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 5:54:34 PM UTC-4, Chris Behm wrote:
On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 9:57:38 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Chris Behm wrote on 10/25/2020 11:23 AM:
I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel)..
But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.

Here's another idea: look at the tow vehicles on the airfield where you will be flying. That
might give you an idea of what is useful in your area. If you do see a 4WD pickup tow vehicle,
chat up the owner, find out why they have it, then get their phone number, just in case you do
land out in a difficult access field. Buy them a beer once in a while, so they think you are
worth retrieving ;^)

Spend more on the glider, less on the tow vehicle - but get one that tows safely on the highway.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
Thanks to all of you for replying. There is lots of great info here.
I should have been more specific regarding the car vs truck question. I am wondering about outlanding retrieves. Part of me thinks that a truck would be much better, the other parts thinks that most fields that are safely landable by a glider would be able to be traversed by most cars, especially AWD cars.
Being a bit of a frugal guy, I would rather not waste fuel 99% of the time. I suppose I could purchase a dedicated vehicle for towing to a glider event and the possible outlanding recoveries. But it sure would be great to have something double duty that could do both, and be economical when not towing a glider.

What are are the ranges of trailer weights for 15M gliders? I would assume a Libelle in an Eberle trailer would be at the low end of the range. What does that weigh loaded?
How about an 18M span ship, like a Ventus 2 in a Cobra or Comet?

Thanks again, guys.
Try to be nice to each other.....

Very Respectfully,
Target

I will throw my $0.02US here.....
I KNOW I have not towed as many miles as many here.
I will say I have towed using an early "Super Beetle" (90hp on a good day?) with a heavy wood trailer on flat roads.....55MPH with no tailwind was a struggle...Frikkin trailer was a high percentage of tow vehicle weight, even empty....sigh.
I have towed with large motor homes.

Personal cars, I have used a '75 Chevy Monza 4cyl 5MT, '84 Daytona turbo 4cyl 5mt, '88 Camry Alltrac 4cyl AT, '75 Chevy Nova 5L V8 AT, '98 Legacy GT wagon (estate or shooting brake....depends on geography) MT.
Most had upgraded suspension as well as tires.
Wheelbase and tow vehicle weight made a difference.
Heaviest trailer was an ASK-21 in a clamshell behind the Legacy. Totally fine at speed until cut off by a butthead on a downhill.. thanks for the truckers that saw it coming and gave me "wiggle room".
The Nova had "get up and go", but not good in soft fields.
The Camry was good in soft fields, but weak.
The Legacy was better, but could deal with poor surfaces. It was also a good daily driver and decent on long (300+ miles) tows.

Many decades ago, I "heard" about 9 passenger wagons with modded suspension, NASCAR type drivers going "really fast" back when you could land out, retrieve, return, relaunch......still score a day.....yes, before the first US gas embargo.

So, what is best?
Who will drive (some don't drive MT's).
By yourself or sorta dedicated crew?
Do you have a second vehicle onsite?

Many questions, many decisions.

Lots to think about.

I agree that few pilots want to invest in a special-purpose "glider towing only" vehicle. I've towed with everything from a Jeep CJ-7 (not a lot of fun although you never had to worry about nodding off to sleep accidentally) to a mini motorhome. I fly 3-4 contests a year and keep my trailer at home, towing it up to the gliderport about an hour away.

So years ago, I bought a used full-size Chevy van on eBay and fitted it out (also using eBay) with an interior, reclining seats, lights, sound, etc. There's a full-width third-row seat that I can sleep on (obviously not while driving). I paid about $11,000 for it 18 years ago and put another few thousand into equipping it. It's still got less than 100K miles because the only thing I use it for is soaring with occasional family vacation trips.

As Charlie Spratt told me once about all the guys with full-size vans: "We buy them as trucks and drive them like cars. So they last a long time."

I stays packed with all the tools, spares, equipment, etc., I use for soaring. I've slept in it for every contest since I went crewless about 15 years ago--with exceptions for Uvalde and TSA. If it's warm/humid, (e.g., Cordele, or on the road to a contest at a rest stop), a small fan cools things down just enough. It's long ago paid for its cost to acquire and I like the fact that I never really have to unpack/pack it.

It's comfortable to drive and a dream to tow with. Reliability has been generally good (the few problems have all been on long-distance soaring trips, of course). Mileage is OK (mid teens) but I don't drive it that much. It's got a V6, which has been enough to haul a family of four out West with the trailer multiple times. More recent V8s would be a better choice for both power and economy.

The one thing I miss is AWD/4WD. Once in a great while, it would have been nice to be able to drive out into a field instead of carrying the glider out in pieces. But that pushes up the cost and complication. Despite my participation on this newsgroup, I try to stay friendly with other pilots so that if I need 4WD someday, I can borrow it.

When I was growing up and for years after, we towed with the daily driver. Breaking that rule can be very expensive but it doesn't necessarily mean buying a brand-new high-end vehicle that sits most of the time.

Just another view.

Chip Bearden
JB

On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 7:45:43 PM UTC-4, Chip Bearden wrote:
I agree that few pilots want to invest in a special-purpose "glider towing only" vehicle. I've towed with everything from a Jeep CJ-7 (not a lot of fun although you never had to worry about nodding off to sleep accidentally) to a mini motorhome. I fly 3-4 contests a year and keep my trailer at home, towing it up to the gliderport about an hour away.

So years ago, I bought a used full-size Chevy van on eBay and fitted it out (also using eBay) with an interior, reclining seats, lights, sound, etc. There's a full-width third-row seat that I can sleep on (obviously not while driving). I paid about $11,000 for it 18 years ago and put another few thousand into equipping it. It's still got less than 100K miles because the only thing I use it for is soaring with occasional family vacation trips.

As Charlie Spratt told me once about all the guys with full-size vans: "We buy them as trucks and drive them like cars. So they last a long time."

I stays packed with all the tools, spares, equipment, etc., I use for soaring. I've slept in it for every contest since I went crewless about 15 years ago--with exceptions for Uvalde and TSA. If it's warm/humid, (e.g., Cordele, or on the road to a contest at a rest stop), a small fan cools things down just enough. It's long ago paid for its cost to acquire and I like the fact that I never really have to unpack/pack it.

It's comfortable to drive and a dream to tow with. Reliability has been generally good (the few problems have all been on long-distance soaring trips, of course). Mileage is OK (mid teens) but I don't drive it that much. It's got a V6, which has been enough to haul a family of four out West with the trailer multiple times. More recent V8s would be a better choice for both power and economy.

The one thing I miss is AWD/4WD. Once in a great while, it would have been nice to be able to drive out into a field instead of carrying the glider out in pieces. But that pushes up the cost and complication. Despite my participation on this newsgroup, I try to stay friendly with other pilots so that if I need 4WD someday, I can borrow it.

When I was growing up and for years after, we towed with the daily driver.. Breaking that rule can be very expensive but it doesn't necessarily mean buying a brand-new high-end vehicle that sits most of the time.

Just another view.

Chip Bearden
JB

Problem is, Chip, that over the 18 years you've paid for that van over again in insurance cost. That's the hurdle in the way of keeping an extra vehicle dedicated to soaring. I think insurance should cost by the total miles you drive over all your vehicles, alas they don't do it that way. Annual "registration" (pure bureaucracy, our most regressive tax) also costs quite a bit, and in some states they also charge you a percentage of the vehicle value every year in taxes.

Problem is, Chip, that over the 18 years you've paid for that van over again in insurance cost. That's the hurdle in the way of keeping an extra vehicle dedicated to soaring. I think insurance should cost by the total miles you drive over all your vehicles, alas they don't do it that way. Annual "registration" (pure bureaucracy, our most regressive tax) also costs quite a bit, and in some states they also charge you a percentage of the vehicle value every year in taxes.

Good points. Registration cost is not a big deal in NJ although insurance is one of the highest in the country. But it's a second vehicle, one driver, and I do provide estimated miles per year to the insurance co. every year on their form so as a 21-year-old vehicle and with a big deductible, the only big expense is liability. Some insurers are offering mileage-based coverage now but I haven't investigated it. With retirement looming, that may make sense for me going forward (pre-COVID, my daily commute was 60 miles roundtrip).

I'd almost certainly have a second vehicle anyway, just as a backup. This way I have a soaring-specific vehicle. I can drive it to the office if I have to but typically only to put a few miles on it to keep it running. And we did use it last year for a family reunion trip.

Frankly, as much as I sleep in it at contests (and to/from for long hauls), I'm still ahead on $ even though that's more of a benefit than a primary reason for having it. If I tried to justify my soaring expenses based on cost or ROI, I'd have to get out of the sport. And sleeping in the van every night isn't for everyone. I get odd looks each time I show up at a contest and tell them where I'm staying.

Speaking of which, the one reason I didn't consider a pickup truck is the sleeping capacity. With my family size at home at the time, I would have had to go the crew cab route and that limits the bed length and, hence, sleeping options. If not for that, I would definitely have looked at 4WD pickup trucks, in particular as the weather in NJ where I live makes AWD a nice thing during the winter.

The point several have made is that you have to define your personal objective(s) and criteria, then evaluate each option against those to arrive at the best choice. For me it was a used cargo van that I converted myself and am still using almost 20 years later.

Chip Bearden
JB

Freshly plowed fields, especially hilly ones, might be difficult for a
lot of AWD cars. I've landed in some of those. We, my partner and I,
once had a rancher use his tractor with front end loader to pull our
glider out of his field. He also took down a fence to get the job done.

Dan
5J

On 10/30/20 3:54 PM, Chris Behm wrote:
Part of me thinks that a truck would be much better, the other parts thinks that most fields that are safely landable by a glider would be able to be traversed by most cars, especially AWD cars.