Gliding Club Experiences

On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 11:20:51 PM UTC-4, Patrick wrote:
Hello Gliders,



I wanted to make this post to see other pilots experiences at their local gliding clubs. My experience at my local gliding club is so-so, speaking as a young soon to be solo pilot, because of organisational management.



My friend and I have been quite frustrated due to extreme slowness of getting everything into play, from the briefing to bringing out the gliders. Only yesterday, we had the gliders out and ready to be towed to the glider strip at 9.30am, our first flight was at 11.15am... and it was a spectacular day for soaring.



Is this the norm?



I would love to hear your experiences! Thank you!

I understand how disappointing it can be to show up and not fly. During my first season (at a French club), I logged 8 hours at the airport for every 1 hour flown. This somewhat turned me off from gliding because the enjoyment vs. effort ratio was off kilter.Â*

However, the cultural change you're after might not be appropriate for your club. Since clubs are run by volunteers, this means that there is a limit to what we can demand of our clubmates. No one is paid to be there, and so if volunteers aren't enjoying themselves and finding the activity rewarding then they will soon burn-out.

So on the one hand, the operations you describe could be the sign of a club in difficulty, where everyone is disappointed because things aren't gelling and so they aren't quick to get things done. Why should the tow-pilot rush to get there early if no one else has bothered to get out of bed?

On the other hand, it could be a club which has found its right level of engagement,Â*where people have the right work-life balance. If you have young children at home, or you have a two hour drive to the field, it can be hard to get out the door in time to be there by 8AM.

I think it's very important to evaluate if you and the club are not simply good fits for each other-- in which case you might have no option than to find another club-- or if the club is in need of some leadership and might appreciate an energy shot to get things rolling again.Â*

My advice would be to open a conversation with your club members about expectations. If everyone enters it with an open mind, then the results will be great. Either your club will start to turn a corner, or it will better understand that it's not a good fit for people like yourselves. It's important to accept that both are good outcomes, even if you obviously have a favorite horse in this race.

On Monday, November 2, 2020 at 8:00:34 AM UTC-6, Kenn Sebesta wrote:
On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 11:20:51 PM UTC-4, Patrick wrote:
Hello Gliders,



I wanted to make this post to see other pilots experiences at their local gliding clubs. My experience at my local gliding club is so-so, speaking as a young soon to be solo pilot, because of organisational management.



My friend and I have been quite frustrated due to extreme slowness of getting everything into play, from the briefing to bringing out the gliders. Only yesterday, we had the gliders out and ready to be towed to the glider strip at 9.30am, our first flight was at 11.15am... and it was a spectacular day for soaring.



Is this the norm?



I would love to hear your experiences! Thank you!
I understand how disappointing it can be to show up and not fly. During my first season (at a French club), I logged 8 hours at the airport for every 1 hour flown. This somewhat turned me off from gliding because the enjoyment vs. effort ratio was off kilter.

However, the cultural change you're after might not be appropriate for your club. Since clubs are run by volunteers, this means that there is a limit to what we can demand of our clubmates. No one is paid to be there, and so if volunteers aren't enjoying themselves and finding the activity rewarding then they will soon burn-out.

So on the one hand, the operations you describe could be the sign of a club in difficulty, where everyone is disappointed because things aren't gelling and so they aren't quick to get things done. Why should the tow-pilot rush to get there early if no one else has bothered to get out of bed?

On the other hand, it could be a club which has found its right level of engagement, where people have the right work-life balance. If you have young children at home, or you have a two hour drive to the field, it can be hard to get out the door in time to be there by 8AM.

I think it's very important to evaluate if you and the club are not simply good fits for each other-- in which case you might have no option than to find another club-- or if the club is in need of some leadership and might appreciate an energy shot to get things rolling again.

My advice would be to open a conversation with your club members about expectations. If everyone enters it with an open mind, then the results will be great. Either your club will start to turn a corner, or it will better understand that it's not a good fit for people like yourselves. It's important to accept that both are good outcomes, even if you obviously have a favorite horse in this race.
In my opinion your club is doing a good job launching you by 11:15 . If that is not good enough then im sure the old salts at your club would love to see you organize the start times more then once so they can do other tasks that nobody is doing. Most clubs love to see new enthusiasm you would probualy be amazed how much you can actually do instead of waiting for someone else to do it for you . You call tow pilots ,you haul all the gear to the field, you set up tow ropes, its all there just waiting for you . I always tell new students that first and foremost we are not a flight school , we are a club of volunteers and this is a volunteer operation , so when they have concerns such as yours they might be less dissapointed . Or join the Motorglider gang and be happily Aloof

On Monday, November 2, 2020 at 9:16:04 AM UTC-5, Mginty wrote:
On Monday, November 2, 2020 at 8:00:34 AM UTC-6, Kenn Sebesta wrote:
On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 11:20:51 PM UTC-4, Patrick wrote:
Hello Gliders,



I wanted to make this post to see other pilots experiences at their local gliding clubs. My experience at my local gliding club is so-so, speaking as a young soon to be solo pilot, because of organisational management.



My friend and I have been quite frustrated due to extreme slowness of getting everything into play, from the briefing to bringing out the gliders. Only yesterday, we had the gliders out and ready to be towed to the glider strip at 9.30am, our first flight was at 11.15am... and it was a spectacular day for soaring.



Is this the norm?



I would love to hear your experiences! Thank you!
I understand how disappointing it can be to show up and not fly. During my first season (at a French club), I logged 8 hours at the airport for every 1 hour flown. This somewhat turned me off from gliding because the enjoyment vs. effort ratio was off kilter.

However, the cultural change you're after might not be appropriate for your club. Since clubs are run by volunteers, this means that there is a limit to what we can demand of our clubmates. No one is paid to be there, and so if volunteers aren't enjoying themselves and finding the activity rewarding then they will soon burn-out.

So on the one hand, the operations you describe could be the sign of a club in difficulty, where everyone is disappointed because things aren't gelling and so they aren't quick to get things done. Why should the tow-pilot rush to get there early if no one else has bothered to get out of bed?

On the other hand, it could be a club which has found its right level of engagement, where people have the right work-life balance. If you have young children at home, or you have a two hour drive to the field, it can be hard to get out the door in time to be there by 8AM.

I think it's very important to evaluate if you and the club are not simply good fits for each other-- in which case you might have no option than to find another club-- or if the club is in need of some leadership and might appreciate an energy shot to get things rolling again.

My advice would be to open a conversation with your club members about expectations. If everyone enters it with an open mind, then the results will be great. Either your club will start to turn a corner, or it will better understand that it's not a good fit for people like yourselves. It's important to accept that both are good outcomes, even if you obviously have a favorite horse in this race.
In my opinion your club is doing a good job launching you by 11:15 . If that is not good enough then im sure the old salts at your club would love to see you organize the start times more then once so they can do other tasks that nobody is doing. Most clubs love to see new enthusiasm you would probualy be amazed how much you can actually do instead of waiting for someone else to do it for you . You call tow pilots ,you haul all the gear to the field, you set up tow ropes, its all there just waiting for you . I always tell new students that first and foremost we are not a flight school , we are a club of volunteers and this is a volunteer operation , so when they have concerns such as yours they might be less dissapointed . Or join the Motorglider gang and be happily Aloof

Our club is a training club. Students are a very important part of our activity. We plan on being ready to operate shortly after 10:00 each day and have a tow pilot and instructor available.
Students that show up early get more flying. Those that sleep in and arrive at 1:00 on a busy Sunday afternoon will almost certainly get less flying.
We are an all volunteer organization.
This said, it is not uncommon for us to sit around waiting for students.
The surest way to lose enthusiastic new people is to waste their time by not being available to fly. They WILL go away.
UH

" I logged 8 hours at the airport for every 1 hour flown."

Given that it takes several people on the ground to service an aircraft with a single student onboard, and that there is probably a 1hr 30 minimum time from opening the hangar doors to first take-off, with similar at the end of the day, that might be a typical scenario at a volunteer operated club (winch driver, wing tip person, signaller, cable retrieve driver). What would you think was a reasonable proportion for a student at a volunteer operated club?

At my club, we require students to be present for a minimum half day - for which they may get less than an hours flying, depending on conditions. On weekdays when there are fewer around it is normal for students and those flying club gliders to be present for the full day.

Once you become an experienced pilot flying cross country, on a day when you fly cross country your flying time can enormously exceed your time on the ground - but typically the experienced pilots are also the volunteer instructors and tug pilots, and maybe also the committee members who work hard to keep the club running.

If you don't enjoy the things you have to do at the airfield when you are not flying, perhaps gliding at a volunteer club is not for you.

On Thu, 05 Nov 2020 14:36:56 -0800, waremark wrote:

" I logged 8 hours at the airport for every 1 hour flown."

Given that it takes several people on the ground to service an aircraft
with a single student onboard, and that there is probably a 1hr 30
minimum time from opening the hangar doors to first take-off, with
similar at the end of the day, that might be a typical scenario at a
volunteer operated club (winch driver, wing tip person, signaller, cable
retrieve driver). What would you think was a reasonable proportion for a
student at a volunteer operated club?

At my club, we require students to be present for a minimum half day -
for which they may get less than an hours flying, depending on
conditions. On weekdays when there are fewer around it is normal for
students and those flying club gliders to be present for the full day.

Once you become an experienced pilot flying cross country, on a day when
you fly cross country your flying time can enormously exceed your time
on the ground - but typically the experienced pilots are also the
volunteer instructors and tug pilots, and maybe also the committee
members who work hard to keep the club running.

If you don't enjoy the things you have to do at the airfield when you
are not flying, perhaps gliding at a volunteer club is not for you.

Same set of roles to fill at my club, though we roster one less role at
the winch launch point and add a tug pilot and, in summer, a BI (ride
pilot in USAian: we get enough trial flights to justify this rostered
task) - thats six rostered jobs, assigned as half-day duties, at weekends
and four or five all-day people on weekdays.

We also use a booking system for club gliders and instructors, so
typically two pre-solo students share an instructor and glider for a
morning or afternoon.

Solo pilots needing a checkride will typically be fitted in at either end
of the day, leaving thermal flights for the students. Like most UK clubs,
we have fairly strict currency requirements, so I would expect to take a
checkride if I haven't flown for a month or more, despite having been a
solo pilot for 20 years/620 hours.


--
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Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

"Like most UK clubs,
we have fairly strict currency requirements, so I would expect to take a
checkride if I haven't flown for a month or more, despite having been a
solo pilot for 20 years/620 hours."

Not the culture down the road at Dunstable - experienced solo pilots are never required to take a checkride, and would not very often request one. The only requirement we impose is an annual winch check for those wishing to take winch launches.

What did you do after lockdown? We were not flying dual at that stage, so solo pilots all flew after the lockdown layoff (was it two months?) without any checkrides.

On Fri, 06 Nov 2020 04:46:34 -0800, waremark wrote:

What did you do after lockdown? We were not flying dual at that stage,
so solo pilots all flew after the lockdown layoff (was it two months?)
without any checkrides.

I'd managed to do the the chalk&talk seminar before lockdonn, but not the
check flights. So, after lockdown was lifted I got 2 hours in our
simulator: winch launches, launch failures, general flying under calm,
strongish wind both on-run axis and crosswind. Instructor behind a glass
window and with intercom hooked up. I'd guess was about as thorough
checkout for launch eventualities and landings as can be done on a
simulator.

Passed that and was given a solo winch launch in an ASK-21, observed from
the ground by an instructor. Passed that too and was cleared to fly my
Libelle without the usual aero-tow for stalling and spinning in the
Puchacz. Pity: I always enjoy those exercises.

Our simulator has better than 180 degree visuals using 5 projectors. My
observations about it a

- I never managed a winch release without a stall, mainly because there's
no top of cable clue: it just back-releases. Winch power isn't cut and
the glider doesn't arc over as it reaches the top.

- The scenery is a good match for our local area but I found I was flying
cramped circuits, possibly due to display resolution or the fact that a
quick glance over the side doesn't help at all because all you see is
lino.

- I found landing difficult due to a lack of ground textu the initial
round-out was fine because the perspective view was excellent for that,
but the lack of close ground texture made getting the hold-off right
rather difficult: judging round-out and holdoff in the real K-21 is a lot
easier.


--
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Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

What? You are saying that the simulator isn't as good as the real thing? I'm SHOCKED! Shocked, I tell you!

To hear the Condor folks in my club, you would think that the only things missing are the cold beer and groupies after the flight, and they are going to program those "features" very soon.

On Fri, 06 Nov 2020 06:18:07 -0800, markmocho53 wrote:

What? You are saying that the simulator isn't as good as the real thing?
I'm SHOCKED! Shocked, I tell you!


Nah, as you probably sussed, I was just picking on the points that
reached out and grabbed me as the result of using the simulator for solo
pilots' annual flying checks as opposed to pre-solo training and visitor
demos. So, never mind how much better or worse it is than other
simulators: I was far more interested in how well it matches doing
circuits in an ASK-21 and, anyway that clearly what Waremark is
interested in too.

Our annual checks normally involve three things:

- a flying safety seminar.

- winch eventualities in an ASK-21 (two launches during which the only
thing you can be sure of is that the instructor and winchie have
conspired to make it unlikely that you'll get to the top of the cable.

- stalling and spinning exercises in the Puchacz after a 3500-4000 ft
tow, which may also involve out-of-position, low-tow or wake boxing on
the way up.

To hear the Condor folks in my club, you would think that the only
things missing are the cold beer and groupies after the flight, and they
are going to program those "features" very soon.

:-)

Our simulator is a dedicated room at the club, built round a surplus G103
cockpit and using the (Martin-Marietta?) semi-professional version of the
M$ Flight Sim. The cockpit is non-moving. We have a set of 5 projectors
screwed to the ceiling to give a bit more than 180 degree scenery in the
front seat. The instrument panel is an LCD flat screen mounted behind a
black-painted mask with cutouts for the instruments, so is quite
realistic. All controls (pedals, stick, airbrakes, trim and cable
release) are fitted and working though they don't give any speed-related
feel.

The simulator software can do both winch and aero-tow launches.

The only scenery I've seen it running is of our local soaring area,
including an accurate representation of our airfield, but other glider
fields are almost certainly available.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Our simulator has better than 180 degree visuals using 5 projectors. My
observations about it a

- I never managed a winch release without a stall, mainly because there's
no top of cable clue: it just back-releases. Winch power isn't cut and
the glider doesn't arc over as it reaches the top.

The VR goggles make the experience MUCH better -- except for those people who wear bifocals or trifocals. There are many subtle aspects of the real-cockpit experience that aren't duplicated well by multiple screens.
For instance, multiple screens don't allow you to lean around in your seat. You can't peer down to see the ground over the edge of the canopy rails. You can't peer around to see a glider at your 5 o'clock position.