Old Folks Poll

My CG.....

Boggs

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 9:23:37 AM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
My CG.....

Boggs

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 9:23:37 AM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
My CG.....
Boggs

Copy that, brother.

Too few young people (as the title of this poll suggests)

You didn't think my response would be a one-liner, did you?

Everything already cited:
* better trailers (which, with the fiberglass revolution starting in the mid 1960s, made possible near-universal rig-to-fly style vs. hangars, the norm when I was coming up)
* GPS (more flexible tasking but goodbye navigation skills as a way to enhance contest points)
* availability--at a cost--of competitive sailplanes to the average pilot. Less than a dozen top-ranked, well-heeled, lucky guys got one of Len Neimi's Sisus back in the '60s.
* universal availability of really good instrumentation (I used to spend a lot of time tuning my varios/TE with gust filters, restrictors, add/subtracting tubing lengths, capillaries, copper scrubbers in capacity bottles, etc. Now you just plug it all together and configure the software)
* greater consistency of manufacture for new gliders (no more hoping you got a good one from the factory)
* crewless contests (I recall when Erik Mozer showed up crewless for a Nationals around 1992, IIRC; I was truly shocked! Now I've only had a crew a couple of times since 2006. Hahaha).

But the two biggies for me a

1. Leveling of competitive skills that started with the Byars & Holbrook seminars and continued through Reichmann's book and other publications and programs. The top handful of pilots used to be far better than the rest of the pack. Now they're usually more tightly packed, although leeching (another trend that got much worse) and having comparable sailplanes have contributed to this.

2. Demands on time. There's just so much other stuff going on in our lives that conflicts with soaring: other activities, family, job, etc. Those were always there but when I was a 9-to-5 guy, it was easy to free up the time and I think the same was true for my father. Now many of us are pulled in so many directions.

I don't know whether cost, per se, should be on the list. Prices seem astronomical now compared with the old days but compared to income, I don't know.. George Moffat used to say, IIRC, that his limit was 1.5x annual salary.

One thing I might add but I'm not sure it's universally true is that good sailplanes seems to remain competitive for much longer; i.e., the evolution of "high performance" is much slower. The gliders I think of as enduring in the old days--Standard Austria, Ka-6, Sisu--were only at the top for a few years. Today, the ASW 20 (ca 1976) is still out there, though Sports and Club Class have made that possible in recent years. And many others with long histories: e.g., Discus 2, LS8, ASW 27. But I'm still competing in my ASW 24, designed in ~1986 and purchased in 1992. We always kept gliders a little longer than most anyway but we felt the competition pass us by while doing it. Now it doesn't happen as fast or to the same extent, which is a good thing, IMO.

And, finally, a much different set of requirements to manage the technology.. In the old days, it helped if you knew how to sand and fill metal wings to keep the gliders competitive. Now it helps to be tech savvy with interfaces, communications protocols, file formats, multiple tech platforms and OSs, etc. Then, as now, you can pay someone to do this and/or lean on your friends. But while the sailplanes themselves are evolving more slowly, keeping up with the technology from an IT perspective is more difficult.

Just my brief thoughts. Hahahs. You asked, Roy.

Chip Bearden
JB

"And, finally, a much different set of requirements to manage the technology. In the old days, it helped if you knew how to sand and fill metal wings to keep the gliders competitive. Now it helps to be tech savvy with interfaces, communications protocols, file formats, multiple tech platforms and OSs, etc. Then, as now, you can pay someone to do this and/or lean on your friends. But while the sailplanes themselves are evolving more slowly, keeping up with the technology from an IT perspective is more difficult."

Great response Chip - and I really hadn't thought about the evolution in necessary skills set, but it's true. Alot of things we learned to do over the years are now quite relevant and many things my students want to know about, I know very little of.

Sometimes I feel like a dinosaur . . . and it's getting cold outside.
ROY

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 11:47:45 AM UTC-5, Chip Bearden wrote:
You didn't think my response would be a one-liner, did you?

Everything already cited:
* better trailers (which, with the fiberglass revolution starting in the mid 1960s, made possible near-universal rig-to-fly style vs. hangars, the norm when I was coming up)
* GPS (more flexible tasking but goodbye navigation skills as a way to enhance contest points)
* availability--at a cost--of competitive sailplanes to the average pilot.. Less than a dozen top-ranked, well-heeled, lucky guys got one of Len Neimi's Sisus back in the '60s.
* universal availability of really good instrumentation (I used to spend a lot of time tuning my varios/TE with gust filters, restrictors, add/subtracting tubing lengths, capillaries, copper scrubbers in capacity bottles, etc. Now you just plug it all together and configure the software)
* greater consistency of manufacture for new gliders (no more hoping you got a good one from the factory)
* crewless contests (I recall when Erik Mozer showed up crewless for a Nationals around 1992, IIRC; I was truly shocked! Now I've only had a crew a couple of times since 2006. Hahaha).

But the two biggies for me a

1. Leveling of competitive skills that started with the Byars & Holbrook seminars and continued through Reichmann's book and other publications and programs. The top handful of pilots used to be far better than the rest of the pack. Now they're usually more tightly packed, although leeching (another trend that got much worse) and having comparable sailplanes have contributed to this.

2. Demands on time. There's just so much other stuff going on in our lives that conflicts with soaring: other activities, family, job, etc. Those were always there but when I was a 9-to-5 guy, it was easy to free up the time and I think the same was true for my father. Now many of us are pulled in so many directions.

I don't know whether cost, per se, should be on the list. Prices seem astronomical now compared with the old days but compared to income, I don't know. George Moffat used to say, IIRC, that his limit was 1.5x annual salary.

One thing I might add but I'm not sure it's universally true is that good sailplanes seems to remain competitive for much longer; i.e., the evolution of "high performance" is much slower. The gliders I think of as enduring in the old days--Standard Austria, Ka-6, Sisu--were only at the top for a few years. Today, the ASW 20 (ca 1976) is still out there, though Sports and Club Class have made that possible in recent years. And many others with long histories: e.g., Discus 2, LS8, ASW 27. But I'm still competing in my ASW 24, designed in ~1986 and purchased in 1992. We always kept gliders a little longer than most anyway but we felt the competition pass us by while doing it. Now it doesn't happen as fast or to the same extent, which is a good thing, IMO.

And, finally, a much different set of requirements to manage the technology. In the old days, it helped if you knew how to sand and fill metal wings to keep the gliders competitive. Now it helps to be tech savvy with interfaces, communications protocols, file formats, multiple tech platforms and OSs, etc. Then, as now, you can pay someone to do this and/or lean on your friends. But while the sailplanes themselves are evolving more slowly, keeping up with the technology from an IT perspective is more difficult.

Just my brief thoughts. Hahahs. You asked, Roy.

Chip Bearden
JB

What Chip said (though I'm MUCH younger than he is :-) )

I think that GPS/recording had so many first order and second order impacts that it overwhelms the other. Whether it is competition tasking or "OLC Flying", the types of flights and ability to really benchmark oneself against others is a huge change. When I first started, I marveled at the descriptions by Striedieck, Seymour, Kai Gertsen about how they went here or dug out there or followed some "convergence" somewhere. Now, you can study every flight (if you're so inclined) and look at exactly what the big boys/girls did. To me that means current generation pilots can become reasonably competitive so much faster if they have the drive rather than having to sort of "learn by making every mistake in the book".

At the end of the day, it's still about pilot decisions more than equipment, so being able to grow the personal knowledge base more quickly seems to me to be a huge positive.

On the downside as Chip and Hank mentioned, it sorta feels like we're at the tail end of an era (probably already past it). I remember the first years I started competing (late 1980s) you needed a high ranking to be able to get into a contest. Today, if you can fog a mirror, we need you.

Same with airports. NJ had 5 active operations when I started (South Jersey, Colt's Neck, Somerset, Blairstown, Forrestal). Today only Blairstown remains.

Now, you kids get off my lawn and let me take my nap...

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 12:40:12 PM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 11:47:45 AM UTC-5, Chip Bearden wrote:
You didn't think my response would be a one-liner, did you?

Everything already cited:
* better trailers (which, with the fiberglass revolution starting in the mid 1960s, made possible near-universal rig-to-fly style vs. hangars, the norm when I was coming up)
* GPS (more flexible tasking but goodbye navigation skills as a way to enhance contest points)
* availability--at a cost--of competitive sailplanes to the average pilot. Less than a dozen top-ranked, well-heeled, lucky guys got one of Len Neimi's Sisus back in the '60s.
* universal availability of really good instrumentation (I used to spend a lot of time tuning my varios/TE with gust filters, restrictors, add/subtracting tubing lengths, capillaries, copper scrubbers in capacity bottles, etc. Now you just plug it all together and configure the software)
* greater consistency of manufacture for new gliders (no more hoping you got a good one from the factory)
* crewless contests (I recall when Erik Mozer showed up crewless for a Nationals around 1992, IIRC; I was truly shocked! Now I've only had a crew a couple of times since 2006. Hahaha).

But the two biggies for me a

1. Leveling of competitive skills that started with the Byars & Holbrook seminars and continued through Reichmann's book and other publications and programs. The top handful of pilots used to be far better than the rest of the pack. Now they're usually more tightly packed, although leeching (another trend that got much worse) and having comparable sailplanes have contributed to this.

2. Demands on time. There's just so much other stuff going on in our lives that conflicts with soaring: other activities, family, job, etc. Those were always there but when I was a 9-to-5 guy, it was easy to free up the time and I think the same was true for my father. Now many of us are pulled in so many directions.

I don't know whether cost, per se, should be on the list. Prices seem astronomical now compared with the old days but compared to income, I don't know. George Moffat used to say, IIRC, that his limit was 1.5x annual salary.

One thing I might add but I'm not sure it's universally true is that good sailplanes seems to remain competitive for much longer; i.e., the evolution of "high performance" is much slower. The gliders I think of as enduring in the old days--Standard Austria, Ka-6, Sisu--were only at the top for a few years. Today, the ASW 20 (ca 1976) is still out there, though Sports and Club Class have made that possible in recent years. And many others with long histories: e.g., Discus 2, LS8, ASW 27. But I'm still competing in my ASW 24, designed in ~1986 and purchased in 1992. We always kept gliders a little longer than most anyway but we felt the competition pass us by while doing it. Now it doesn't happen as fast or to the same extent, which is a good thing, IMO.

And, finally, a much different set of requirements to manage the technology. In the old days, it helped if you knew how to sand and fill metal wings to keep the gliders competitive. Now it helps to be tech savvy with interfaces, communications protocols, file formats, multiple tech platforms and OSs, etc. Then, as now, you can pay someone to do this and/or lean on your friends. But while the sailplanes themselves are evolving more slowly, keeping up with the technology from an IT perspective is more difficult.

Just my brief thoughts. Hahahs. You asked, Roy.

Chip Bearden
JB
What Chip said (though I'm MUCH younger than he is :-) )

I think that GPS/recording had so many first order and second order impacts that it overwhelms the other. Whether it is competition tasking or "OLC Flying", the types of flights and ability to really benchmark oneself against others is a huge change. When I first started, I marveled at the descriptions by Striedieck, Seymour, Kai Gertsen about how they went here or dug out there or followed some "convergence" somewhere. Now, you can study every flight (if you're so inclined) and look at exactly what the big boys/girls did. To me that means current generation pilots can become reasonably competitive so much faster if they have the drive rather than having to sort of "learn by making every mistake in the book".

At the end of the day, it's still about pilot decisions more than equipment, so being able to grow the personal knowledge base more quickly seems to me to be a huge positive.

On the downside as Chip and Hank mentioned, it sorta feels like we're at the tail end of an era (probably already past it). I remember the first years I started competing (late 1980s) you needed a high ranking to be able to get into a contest. Today, if you can fog a mirror, we need you.

Same with airports. NJ had 5 active operations when I started (South Jersey, Colt's Neck, Somerset, Blairstown, Forrestal). Today only Blairstown remains.

Now, you kids get off my lawn and let me take my nap...



All of the above comments. Boy do I miss smoking & fixing the barograph. Hoping the cameras workd and the turnpoint photos were good. Opening charts in the cockpit to navigate, following a compass course, Looking at turnpoint task photos to make sure I was at the correct one for a task photo. Can I really trus my "prayer wheel" for the final glide. Yes, Roy B I still have one and it is in my ship to confirm what my CN says. Now it's, will my batteries last, who is my go to IT guy when files crash or instruments need updates. Is that other guy just looking in his cockpit to see all his screens or is he looking out at the other gliders?
Boise, ID

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 12:11:20 PM UTC-8, Thomas Dixon wrote:
On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 12:40:12 PM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 11:47:45 AM UTC-5, Chip Bearden wrote:
You didn't think my response would be a one-liner, did you?

Everything already cited:
* better trailers (which, with the fiberglass revolution starting in the mid 1960s, made possible near-universal rig-to-fly style vs. hangars, the norm when I was coming up)
* GPS (more flexible tasking but goodbye navigation skills as a way to enhance contest points)
* availability--at a cost--of competitive sailplanes to the average pilot. Less than a dozen top-ranked, well-heeled, lucky guys got one of Len Neimi's Sisus back in the '60s.
* universal availability of really good instrumentation (I used to spend a lot of time tuning my varios/TE with gust filters, restrictors, add/subtracting tubing lengths, capillaries, copper scrubbers in capacity bottles, etc. Now you just plug it all together and configure the software)
* greater consistency of manufacture for new gliders (no more hoping you got a good one from the factory)
* crewless contests (I recall when Erik Mozer showed up crewless for a Nationals around 1992, IIRC; I was truly shocked! Now I've only had a crew a couple of times since 2006. Hahaha).

But the two biggies for me a

1. Leveling of competitive skills that started with the Byars & Holbrook seminars and continued through Reichmann's book and other publications and programs. The top handful of pilots used to be far better than the rest of the pack. Now they're usually more tightly packed, although leeching (another trend that got much worse) and having comparable sailplanes have contributed to this.

2. Demands on time. There's just so much other stuff going on in our lives that conflicts with soaring: other activities, family, job, etc. Those were always there but when I was a 9-to-5 guy, it was easy to free up the time and I think the same was true for my father. Now many of us are pulled in so many directions.

I don't know whether cost, per se, should be on the list. Prices seem astronomical now compared with the old days but compared to income, I don't know. George Moffat used to say, IIRC, that his limit was 1.5x annual salary.

One thing I might add but I'm not sure it's universally true is that good sailplanes seems to remain competitive for much longer; i.e., the evolution of "high performance" is much slower. The gliders I think of as enduring in the old days--Standard Austria, Ka-6, Sisu--were only at the top for a few years. Today, the ASW 20 (ca 1976) is still out there, though Sports and Club Class have made that possible in recent years. And many others with long histories: e.g., Discus 2, LS8, ASW 27. But I'm still competing in my ASW 24, designed in ~1986 and purchased in 1992. We always kept gliders a little longer than most anyway but we felt the competition pass us by while doing it. Now it doesn't happen as fast or to the same extent, which is a good thing, IMO.

And, finally, a much different set of requirements to manage the technology. In the old days, it helped if you knew how to sand and fill metal wings to keep the gliders competitive. Now it helps to be tech savvy with interfaces, communications protocols, file formats, multiple tech platforms and OSs, etc. Then, as now, you can pay someone to do this and/or lean on your friends. But while the sailplanes themselves are evolving more slowly, keeping up with the technology from an IT perspective is more difficult.

Just my brief thoughts. Hahahs. You asked, Roy.

Chip Bearden
JB
What Chip said (though I'm MUCH younger than he is :-) )

I think that GPS/recording had so many first order and second order impacts that it overwhelms the other. Whether it is competition tasking or "OLC Flying", the types of flights and ability to really benchmark oneself against others is a huge change. When I first started, I marveled at the descriptions by Striedieck, Seymour, Kai Gertsen about how they went here or dug out there or followed some "convergence" somewhere. Now, you can study every flight (if you're so inclined) and look at exactly what the big boys/girls did. To me that means current generation pilots can become reasonably competitive so much faster if they have the drive rather than having to sort of "learn by making every mistake in the book".

At the end of the day, it's still about pilot decisions more than equipment, so being able to grow the personal knowledge base more quickly seems to me to be a huge positive.

On the downside as Chip and Hank mentioned, it sorta feels like we're at the tail end of an era (probably already past it). I remember the first years I started competing (late 1980s) you needed a high ranking to be able to get into a contest. Today, if you can fog a mirror, we need you.

Same with airports. NJ had 5 active operations when I started (South Jersey, Colt's Neck, Somerset, Blairstown, Forrestal). Today only Blairstown remains.

Now, you kids get off my lawn and let me take my nap...
All of the above comments. Boy do I miss smoking & fixing the barograph. Hoping the cameras workd and the turnpoint photos were good. Opening charts in the cockpit to navigate, following a compass course, Looking at turnpoint task photos to make sure I was at the correct one for a task photo. Can I really trus my "prayer wheel" for the final glide. Yes, Roy B I still have one and it is in my ship to confirm what my CN says. Now it's, will my batteries last, who is my go to IT guy when files crash or instruments need updates. Is that other guy just looking in his cockpit to see all his screens or is he looking out at the other gliders?
Boise, ID
Only 45+ years.....

The revolution in cockpit electronics (flight & navigation computers, FDRs); much of what else has changed since is a direct fallout (my first glider(s) needed a battery only to run the radio).

The advent of accurate internet weather forecasting has changed the social aspect. We used to head to the gliderport every Saturday no matter what and either fly or hangar fly. Now everyone checks weather and if it looks unsoarable, no one shows up.

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 2:40:12 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 11:47:45 AM UTC-5, Chip Bearden wrote:
You didn't think my response would be a one-liner, did you?

Everything already cited:
* better trailers (which, with the fiberglass revolution starting in the mid 1960s, made possible near-universal rig-to-fly style vs. hangars, the norm when I was coming up)
* GPS (more flexible tasking but goodbye navigation skills as a way to enhance contest points)
* availability--at a cost--of competitive sailplanes to the average pilot. Less than a dozen top-ranked, well-heeled, lucky guys got one of Len Neimi's Sisus back in the '60s.
* universal availability of really good instrumentation (I used to spend a lot of time tuning my varios/TE with gust filters, restrictors, add/subtracting tubing lengths, capillaries, copper scrubbers in capacity bottles, etc. Now you just plug it all together and configure the software)
* greater consistency of manufacture for new gliders (no more hoping you got a good one from the factory)
* crewless contests (I recall when Erik Mozer showed up crewless for a Nationals around 1992, IIRC; I was truly shocked! Now I've only had a crew a couple of times since 2006. Hahaha).

But the two biggies for me a

1. Leveling of competitive skills that started with the Byars & Holbrook seminars and continued through Reichmann's book and other publications and programs. The top handful of pilots used to be far better than the rest of the pack. Now they're usually more tightly packed, although leeching (another trend that got much worse) and having comparable sailplanes have contributed to this.

2. Demands on time. There's just so much other stuff going on in our lives that conflicts with soaring: other activities, family, job, etc. Those were always there but when I was a 9-to-5 guy, it was easy to free up the time and I think the same was true for my father. Now many of us are pulled in so many directions.

I don't know whether cost, per se, should be on the list. Prices seem astronomical now compared with the old days but compared to income, I don't know. George Moffat used to say, IIRC, that his limit was 1.5x annual salary.

One thing I might add but I'm not sure it's universally true is that good sailplanes seems to remain competitive for much longer; i.e., the evolution of "high performance" is much slower. The gliders I think of as enduring in the old days--Standard Austria, Ka-6, Sisu--were only at the top for a few years. Today, the ASW 20 (ca 1976) is still out there, though Sports and Club Class have made that possible in recent years. And many others with long histories: e.g., Discus 2, LS8, ASW 27. But I'm still competing in my ASW 24, designed in ~1986 and purchased in 1992. We always kept gliders a little longer than most anyway but we felt the competition pass us by while doing it. Now it doesn't happen as fast or to the same extent, which is a good thing, IMO.

And, finally, a much different set of requirements to manage the technology. In the old days, it helped if you knew how to sand and fill metal wings to keep the gliders competitive. Now it helps to be tech savvy with interfaces, communications protocols, file formats, multiple tech platforms and OSs, etc. Then, as now, you can pay someone to do this and/or lean on your friends. But while the sailplanes themselves are evolving more slowly, keeping up with the technology from an IT perspective is more difficult.

Just my brief thoughts. Hahahs. You asked, Roy.

Chip Bearden
JB

What Chip said (though I'm MUCH younger than he is :-) )

I think that GPS/recording had so many first order and second order impacts that it overwhelms the other. Whether it is competition tasking or "OLC Flying", the types of flights and ability to really benchmark oneself against others is a huge change. When I first started, I marveled at the descriptions by Striedieck, Seymour, Kai Gertsen about how they went here or dug out there or followed some "convergence" somewhere. Now, you can study every flight (if you're so inclined) and look at exactly what the big boys/girls did. To me that means current generation pilots can become reasonably competitive so much faster if they have the drive rather than having to sort of "learn by making every mistake in the book".

At the end of the day, it's still about pilot decisions more than equipment, so being able to grow the personal knowledge base more quickly seems to me to be a huge positive.

On the downside as Chip and Hank mentioned, it sorta feels like we're at the tail end of an era (probably already past it). I remember the first years I started competing (late 1980s) you needed a high ranking to be able to get into a contest. Today, if you can fog a mirror, we need you.

Same with airports. NJ had 5 active operations when I started (South Jersey, Colt's Neck, Somerset, Blairstown, Forrestal). Today only Blairstown remains.

Now, you kids get off my lawn and let me take my nap...

Electronics/Technology and mastery of same gaining importance in achieving performance.