midair in Bay Area Nov 7

Moshe Braner wrote on 11/17/2020 8:12 PM:
On 11/17/2020 12:01 PM, Ramy wrote:
On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 8:06:00 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
On 11/16/20 6:10 PM, Ramy wrote:
One of the flarms was inop due to expired firmware.
I wonder how many personal injury attorneys saw that statement...

--
Dan
5J
Flarm is voluntary installation after all.
The pilot with* the operating flarm was not injured.
The point here is not to put blame.
Every year I hear of multiple expired firmwares, including that very same day he wasn’t the
only one.
There is an awareness and confusion issue which we need to address.
I am planning to always have the latest firmware on a USB stick with me (without my config
file!) and periodically ask my buddies at the airport if they upgraded the firmware this
year, if not, will upgrade it for them on the spot.

Ramy


You're saying "The pilot with the operating flarm was not injured" - as if it's the out of date
firmware that caused the other pilot to be injured after bailing out?

The device was disabled by the manufacturer leading to one injury and two lost gliders.* Not
causing, but contributing to the likelihood of that collision.* For no good reason.

How long should a unit be allowed to go beyond a year without updating? one month? One year? 10
years? You are suggesting that units with newer versions must recognize the version of other
Flarms and compensate for their reduced functionality, giving us a system that is not operating
as well as it could - which reduces our safety.

Eventually, older versions must be updated. You accept this when you install it, and it can
easily be part of your annual inspection. If you have a Flarm compatible display, it will
announce the need for the update; if you choose a non-compatible display, it is your
responsibility to remember when to update. This is no different than expecting pilots to update
their charts and check for NOTAMS.

Perhaps every Flarm unit should have a loud, annoying buzzer that activates at the end of the
first flight with outdated firmware :^) In the meantime, Ramy's "Johnny Appleseed" approach
and reminders at contests and camps are worthwhile efforts.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On 11/18/2020 9:18 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Moshe Braner wrote on 11/17/2020 8:12 PM:
...

How long should a unit be allowed to go beyond a year without updating?
one month? One year? 10 years? You are suggesting that units with newer
versions must recognize the version of other Flarms and compensate for
their reduced functionality, giving us a system that is not operating as
well as it could - which reduces our safety.

Eventually, older versions must be updated. You accept this when you
install it, and it can easily be part of your annual inspection. If you
have a Flarm compatible display, it will announce the need for the
update; if you choose a non-compatible display, it is your
responsibility to remember when to update. This is no different than
expecting pilots to update their charts and check for NOTAMS.

Perhaps every Flarm unit should have a loud, annoying buzzer that
activates at the end of the first flight with outdated firmware :^)Â* In
the meantime, Ramy's "Johnny Appleseed" approach and reminders at
contests and camps are worthwhile efforts.

AFAIK, the FLARM units transmit position reports in the blind, and there
is no reason they should stop doing that if the firmware is old. On the
receiving side, they need to interpret the data packets that come in.
As long as they can understand those packets, they should use them.

As I mentioned in my other posting, at any given moment some
properly-updated FLARM units have firmware that is up to a year older
than others. Perhaps even a larger gap, since when you "update" it you
get some version of the firmware from the FLARM web site, that is
already some months old. Last spring we were told to use an older
version 6.8.x for PowerFLARM since the latest version 7.x had some bug.

And my guess (would love to hear from those who really know) is that the
data packets themselves have not changed in some years, even as the
algorithms the unit uses to predict which ones represent a collision
hazard have improved. Yet another reason why a unit with older firmware
should keep on operating.

Of course one should do the firmware updates, but what upsets me is the
unit refusing to operate at all if you don't. Like I said, it should
instead give some sort of semi-annoying reminder, like an occasional sound.

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 6:51:21 AM UTC-8, Moshe Braner wrote:
On 11/18/2020 9:18 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Moshe Braner wrote on 11/17/2020 8:12 PM:
...

How long should a unit be allowed to go beyond a year without updating?
one month? One year? 10 years? You are suggesting that units with newer
versions must recognize the version of other Flarms and compensate for
their reduced functionality, giving us a system that is not operating as
well as it could - which reduces our safety.

Eventually, older versions must be updated. You accept this when you
install it, and it can easily be part of your annual inspection. If you
have a Flarm compatible display, it will announce the need for the
update; if you choose a non-compatible display, it is your
responsibility to remember when to update. This is no different than
expecting pilots to update their charts and check for NOTAMS.

Perhaps every Flarm unit should have a loud, annoying buzzer that
activates at the end of the first flight with outdated firmware :^) In
the meantime, Ramy's "Johnny Appleseed" approach and reminders at
contests and camps are worthwhile efforts.
AFAIK, the FLARM units transmit position reports in the blind, and there
is no reason they should stop doing that if the firmware is old. On the
receiving side, they need to interpret the data packets that come in.
As long as they can understand those packets, they should use them.

As I mentioned in my other posting, at any given moment some
properly-updated FLARM units have firmware that is up to a year older
than others. Perhaps even a larger gap, since when you "update" it you
get some version of the firmware from the FLARM web site, that is
already some months old. Last spring we were told to use an older
version 6.8.x for PowerFLARM since the latest version 7.x had some bug.

And my guess (would love to hear from those who really know) is that the
data packets themselves have not changed in some years, even as the
algorithms the unit uses to predict which ones represent a collision
hazard have improved. Yet another reason why a unit with older firmware
should keep on operating.

Of course one should do the firmware updates, but what upsets me is the
unit refusing to operate at all if you don't. Like I said, it should
instead give some sort of semi-annoying reminder, like an occasional sound.

I requested the same from Flarm team. I am hoping they will come up with a better solution.

Ramy

And my guess (would love to hear from those who really know) is that the
data packets themselves have not changed in some years, even as the
algorithms the unit uses to predict which ones represent a collision
hazard have improved. Yet another reason why a unit with older firmware
should keep on operating.

Of course one should do the firmware updates, but what upsets me is the
unit refusing to operate at all if you don't. Like I said, it should
instead give some sort of semi-annoying reminder, like an occasional sound.

Does anyone know for sure what happens between a recently updated Flarm and one which has not been updated? It is quite possible that the newer firmware unit does deal with info from the older firmware unit. What Flarm have guaranteed is that firmware will be compatible forwards and backwards at least 12 months - I think that is different from saying that you will definitely not benefit from a warning if there is a longer firmware age difference. They introduced this system to replace a far worse system where there was no forwards and backwards capability, and they asked everyone to upgrade within a one month period.

Moshe Braner wrote on 11/18/2020 6:52 AM:
On 11/18/2020 9:18 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Moshe Braner wrote on 11/17/2020 8:12 PM:
...

How long should a unit be allowed to go beyond a year without updating? one month? One year?
10 years? You are suggesting that units with newer versions must recognize the version of
other Flarms and compensate for their reduced functionality, giving us a system that is not
operating as well as it could - which reduces our safety.

Eventually, older versions must be updated. You accept this when you install it, and it can
easily be part of your annual inspection. If you have a Flarm compatible display, it will
announce the need for the update; if you choose a non-compatible display, it is your
responsibility to remember when to update. This is no different than expecting pilots to
update their charts and check for NOTAMS.

Perhaps every Flarm unit should have a loud, annoying buzzer that activates at the end of the
first flight with outdated firmware :^)* In the meantime, Ramy's "Johnny Appleseed" approach
and reminders at contests and camps are worthwhile efforts.

AFAIK, the FLARM units transmit position reports in the blind, and there is no reason they
should stop doing that if the firmware is old.* On the receiving side, they need to interpret
the data packets that come in. As long as they can understand those packets, they should use them.

As I mentioned in my other posting, at any given moment some properly-updated FLARM units have
firmware that is up to a year older than others.* Perhaps even a larger gap, since when you
"update" it you get some version of the firmware from the FLARM web site, that is already some
months old.* Last spring we were told to use an older version 6.8.x for PowerFLARM since the
latest version 7.x had some bug.

And my guess (would love to hear from those who really know) is that the data packets
themselves have not changed in some years, even as the algorithms the unit uses to predict
which ones represent a collision hazard have improved.* Yet another reason why a unit with
older firmware should keep on operating.

Of course one should do the firmware updates, but what upsets me is the unit refusing to
operate at all if you don't.* Like I said, it should instead give some sort of semi-annoying
reminder, like an occasional sound.

My understanding is they broadcast a projected flight path for the glider in which they are
installed. The receiving Flarm calculates the collision potential based on that projected
flight path, and the one it projects for it's own glider. Flarm is not just a simple position
reporter, and it depends on both units using the same GPS data in the same way, and making
calculations the same way.

Would you excuse a pilot that does not update his database, then uses the wrong CTAF when
landing at an airport? I think the requirement for a yearly update is reasonable, the manual
states that requirement, and the unit will announce the problem on a compatible display.

A buzzer to warn the pilot might help; possibly, the Flarm could continue to broadcast it's
position and expired status, then receiving Flarms could show a big red "X" so other pilots
know they are flying near an expired Flarm. Later, they can bring their USB drives to the pilot
and encourage him to update.

I still wonder how long you think a unit should operate without updates.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

I think the pflarm guys/gals had a good reason for setting a policy for updates. They probably thought of the case where the thing continues to work "barely good enough" and knew some lazy pilots would just leave it that way forever. That's no good either.
As we are starting to see with other devices the best solution would have been to have builit-in wifi and auto updates. Much like your computer... but then that adds cost and a whole other set of complaints.
Darren

On 11/18/20 7:18 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
If you have a Flarm compatible display, it will announce the need for
the update;

Well... I've never seen this. Does that mean that I've been good at
keeping my Flarm up to date?

BTW, last night I emailed the latest firmware and my config file with
T8's suggestion to the hangar. I'll make the updates before my next flight.

--
Dan
5J

Dan Marotta wrote on 11/18/2020 8:27 AM:
On 11/18/20 7:18 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
If you have a Flarm compatible display, it will announce the need for the update;

Well...* I've never seen this.* Does that mean that I've been good at keeping my Flarm up to date?

BTW, last night I emailed the latest firmware and my config file with T8's suggestion to the
hangar.* I'll make the updates before my next flight.

I haven't seen it, either, but then, I always update before the first flight of the year, which
is always in March.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1