midair in Bay Area Nov 7

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 05:24:27 -0800, Me wrote:

On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 10:03:10 PM UTC-6, Gregg Ballou wrote:
Have there been any glider mid airs in the last few years where the
gliders didn't have Flarm?

There's also a lot more car crashes with seat belts these days.

Seat belts don't warn the driver of possible car crashes - they only make
them more survivable.

FLARM is not remotely equivalent to a seat-belt.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Martin Gregorie wrote on 11/18/2020 6:27 AM:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 05:24:27 -0800, Me wrote:

On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 10:03:10 PM UTC-6, Gregg Ballou wrote:
Have there been any glider mid airs in the last few years where the
gliders didn't have Flarm?

There's also a lot more car crashes with seat belts these days.

Seat belts don't warn the driver of possible car crashes - they only make
them more survivable.

FLARM is not remotely equivalent to a seat-belt.

Seat belts - and Flarm - make their respective activities (driving and flying) more survivable,
though by different means. In aircraft, seat belts often have expiry dates, and need "firmware"
updates. So, I think they are equivalent in the sense they are both safety devices.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On 11/18/2020 10:57 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Martin Gregorie wrote on 11/18/2020 6:27 AM:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 05:24:27 -0800, Me wrote:

On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 10:03:10 PM UTC-6, Gregg Ballou wrote:
Have there been any glider mid airs in the last few years where the
gliders didn't have Flarm?

There's also a lot more car crashes with seat belts these days.

Seat belts don't warn the driver of possible car crashes - they only make
them more survivable.

FLARM is not remotely equivalent to a seat-belt.

Seat belts - and Flarm - make their respective activities (driving and
flying) more survivable, though by different means. In aircraft, seat
belts often have expiry dates, and need "firmware" updates. So, I think
they are equivalent in the sense they are both safety devices.


Very very different:

Old seat belts don't self-destruct on a schedule (although they do
weaken with age). If somebody doesn't replace them on time they still
help as best as they can. I wish FLARM would do the same with old firmware.

But more importantly, as noted above, FLARM is a preventative device,
not a survivability aid like seatbelts. It is more like the gizmos some
cars have now that warn you about getting too close to something behind
you when you back up. I'm sure those get software updates sometimes,
but I don't expect they stop working just because the software is old.

On Wednesday, 18 November 2020 at 21:14:01 UTC, Moshe Braner wrote:
On 11/18/2020 10:57 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Martin Gregorie wrote on 11/18/2020 6:27 AM:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 05:24:27 -0800, Me wrote:

On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 10:03:10 PM UTC-6, Gregg Ballou wrote:
Have there been any glider mid airs in the last few years where the
gliders didn't have Flarm?

There's also a lot more car crashes with seat belts these days.

Seat belts don't warn the driver of possible car crashes - they only make
them more survivable.

FLARM is not remotely equivalent to a seat-belt.

Seat belts - and Flarm - make their respective activities (driving and
flying) more survivable, though by different means. In aircraft, seat
belts often have expiry dates, and need "firmware" updates. So, I think
they are equivalent in the sense they are both safety devices.

Very very different:

Old seat belts don't self-destruct on a schedule (although they do
weaken with age). If somebody doesn't replace them on time they still
help as best as they can. I wish FLARM would do the same with old firmware.

But more importantly, as noted above, FLARM is a preventative device,
not a survivability aid like seatbelts. It is more like the gizmos some
cars have now that warn you about getting too close to something behind
you when you back up. I'm sure those get software updates sometimes,
but I don't expect they stop working just because the software is old.

You buy anything, you have to know how it works. It is made very clear by Flarm what the update policy has been since 2015, which is to allow for developments to be introduced without every update having to be compatible with every other very old version that other people haven't bothered to update. See:

https://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/

https://support.flarm.com/hc/en-us/a...piration-date-

Each major update actually is valid for longer than a year from its release so that at any time during the life of that update different owners can begin their annual free update cycle. In EASA land it should be formally included in the glider AMP (annual maintenance program). If an owner can't manage doing that or getting it done for him what else is he not capable of?

Of course every pilot should make sure that his FLARM is working before each season and before each takeoff.

Of course the FLARM team should encourage all pilots to upgrade to the latest firmware.

The question is how should the FLARM team do that? A graceful degradation in performance coupled with annoying beeps, as some have suggested, is surely preferable to ceasing to function altogether, especially given that lives may be at stake and not just the lives of those who failed to upgrade their firmware, but also the lives of those who's FLARM firmware is up-to-date, but who may end up colliding with someone who's FLARM is disabled because the firmware is out of date.

Branko
XYU

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 14:30:21 -0800, wrote:

The question is how should the FLARM team do that? A graceful
degradation in performance coupled with annoying beeps, as some have
suggested, is surely preferable to ceasing to function altogether,
especially given that lives may be at stake and not just the lives of
those who failed to upgrade their firmware, but also the lives of those
who's FLARM firmware is up-to-date, but who may end up colliding with
someone who's FLARM is disabled because the firmware is out of date.

Good point: you really need to read the manual for your FLARM unit AND
the display to understand what should appear at start-up because thats
when it will tell you about faults and out of date software. You need to
read instructions for both due to the large number of different displays
that can be used. The way my FLARM, a RedBox with the 40mm clockface LED
display, indicates a fault will be very different from what another Red
Box with an LX or Butterfly OLED display, a PowerFlarm, or what the FLARM
built into an LX Nav vario is likely to show.

I'd suggest that, since the FLARM team can't know what display is
connected, then the FLARM team can't do anything much different from what
they do now to indicate faults, i.e. send the fault code to the display
and let that decide how the format and display it, so really is up to the
pilot to know how their unit says 'FAULT!' and understand what it means.

I generally watch my FLARM come up when its powered on, at least long
enough to see the LED test flash. I also look at it as part of pre-launch
checks and will not launch without Power and GPS showing steady green, Tx
flashing green and everything else off: this is what mine should be
showing when it is stationary on the ground.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Martin Gregorie wrote on 11/18/2020 3:53 PM:
I generally watch my FLARM come up when its powered on, at least long
enough to see the LED test flash. I also look at it as part of pre-launch
checks and will not launch without Power and GPS showing steady green, Tx
flashing green and everything else off: this is what mine should be
showing when it is stationary on the ground.

I also expect to see other Flarms while preflighting the glider before flying, and before
takeoff - no Flarms seen means I likely have a problem and should determine what it is.

But really: do it at the annual; do it when you are getting the glider ready for the 1st flight
of the season. It's not that hard - write yourself notes if you can't remember.

And then, check it on the ground before you launch - can you see the other gliders around you,
that are also getting ready, and have their panel turned on?

Can't depend on yourself to do those things? Get a compatible display that will show the
expiration situation, and learn how to use it!

It's not hard to avoid an expired firmware. You can still decide to fly with an expired Flarm,
but you have multiple opportunities to do the right thing.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1