New Battery Type?

On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 11:32:32 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
AS wrote on 11/26/2020 1:55 PM:
On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 1:02:00 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
AS wrote on 11/26/2020 8:59 AM:
On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 11:19:57 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I have used such a battery since July. Works just fine for me in my ASG 32 Mi with lots of electronic stuff.

/Robert

So there is already some operational experience with this type of batteries, which is good to hear. The warnings about the initially high voltage of 16+V is well taken. I checked the spec's of the stuff I have on and behind my panel and most of it is limited to only 15V.
That would lead me to more follow-up questions for the experts:
- what would happen if this battery was charged with only 15V?
- if the above is not advisable, would the use of an electronic voltage regulator like this one be an option?
https://vetco.net/products/dc-dc-adj...kaAnEdEALw_wcB
- I am not familiar with this type of electronics but reading the specifications of it, I see a 'Ripple Frequency' of 150kHz on the output. Could that mess up the electronics?

Thanks for any constructive replies.
The voltage regulator might cause radio and other interference, adds complexity, and one more
item to fail, possibly damaging the devices it was supposed to protect.. There seems to be no
sufficient reason to consider this chemistry, compared to LiFe batteries, unless you are space
limited, due to higher cost and risk of over-voltage.

Is battery space insufficient on your glider?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Good points, Eric.
I currently have room for and use two 12V LiFe batteries (K2) but I get low voltage warnings on my SN10b fairly early into the flight when keying the radio, a KTR72N. The batteries are only two seasons old. I may have some other, more power hungry equipment, like a Volkslogger functioning only as the GPS source, which may have a higher draw.
My goal is to get rid of the Volkslogger but in parallel, I was thinking about upgrading the batteries. However, that seems to be not as easy as cleaning up my panel.
Is the battery voltage dropping when you key the radio? If not, or if it's a small amount, it
may be the wiring to the radio is too small or has connection issues, and it shares the wiring
with the SN!0B. The usual way to avoid this is to wire the SN10B "directly" to the battery and
to a good ground. The positive lead should have a fuse near the battery.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

I guess it is time to rewire the panel. The mechanic of the previous owner left this rats nest of wires and that may be part of the problem.
Thanks for the constructive advise.

Uli
'AS'

On Friday, November 27, 2020 at 12:22:03 AM UTC-5, AS wrote:
On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 11:32:32 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
AS wrote on 11/26/2020 1:55 PM:
On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 1:02:00 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
AS wrote on 11/26/2020 8:59 AM:
On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 11:19:57 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I have used such a battery since July. Works just fine for me in my ASG 32 Mi with lots of electronic stuff.

/Robert

So there is already some operational experience with this type of batteries, which is good to hear. The warnings about the initially high voltage of 16+V is well taken. I checked the spec's of the stuff I have on and behind my panel and most of it is limited to only 15V.
That would lead me to more follow-up questions for the experts:
- what would happen if this battery was charged with only 15V?
- if the above is not advisable, would the use of an electronic voltage regulator like this one be an option?
https://vetco.net/products/dc-dc-adj...kaAnEdEALw_wcB
- I am not familiar with this type of electronics but reading the specifications of it, I see a 'Ripple Frequency' of 150kHz on the output. Could that mess up the electronics?

Thanks for any constructive replies.
The voltage regulator might cause radio and other interference, adds complexity, and one more
item to fail, possibly damaging the devices it was supposed to protect. There seems to be no
sufficient reason to consider this chemistry, compared to LiFe batteries, unless you are space
limited, due to higher cost and risk of over-voltage.

Is battery space insufficient on your glider?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Good points, Eric.
I currently have room for and use two 12V LiFe batteries (K2) but I get low voltage warnings on my SN10b fairly early into the flight when keying the radio, a KTR72N. The batteries are only two seasons old. I may have some other, more power hungry equipment, like a Volkslogger functioning only as the GPS source, which may have a higher draw.
My goal is to get rid of the Volkslogger but in parallel, I was thinking about upgrading the batteries. However, that seems to be not as easy as cleaning up my panel.
Is the battery voltage dropping when you key the radio? If not, or if it's a small amount, it
may be the wiring to the radio is too small or has connection issues, and it shares the wiring
with the SN!0B. The usual way to avoid this is to wire the SN10B "directly" to the battery and
to a good ground. The positive lead should have a fuse near the battery..
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
I guess it is time to rewire the panel. The mechanic of the previous owner left this rats nest of wires and that may be part of the problem.
Thanks for the constructive advise.

Uli
'AS'
As to "rewire the rat's nest": I have never purchased a "new" glider, only a "used" one. In every case, there have been tubing and wiring issues and in each case I undertook to re-wire and re-tube everything I could get at. In every case, I have discovered something that was at least puzzling if not down-right scary. You don't have to be a wizard to discover problems and correct them. Just take it one thing at a time, get everything neat, and you will have a lot more fun come spring than if you don't.

I've rewired and/or replumbed my panel three or four times over the years as new equipment is added and old things are removed. Upgrading flight computers, displays, radios, transponders and the like have greatly enhanced the cockpit environment. One thing I have found invaluable is John DeRosa's series of helpful tips on glider maintenance. (http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/) The "Aviation Electrical Best Practices" presentation shows the "right" way to go about wiring a cockpit. If you have any electrical skills, whether in industrial or home wiring, you will find the particular requirements for aviation are different. This guide steers you in the right direction. Thanks to "OHM" for these guides.

As to "rewire the rat's nest": I have never purchased a "new" glider, only a "used" one. In every case, there have been tubing and wiring issues and in each case I undertook to re-wire and re-tube everything I could get at. In every case, I have discovered something that was at least puzzling if not down-right scary. You don't have to be a wizard to discover problems and correct them. Just take it one thing at a time, get everything neat, and you will have a lot more fun come spring than if you don't.

On Friday, November 27, 2020 at 11:01:36 AM UTC-5, Mark Mocho wrote:
I've rewired and/or replumbed my panel three or four times over the years as new equipment is added and old things are removed. Upgrading flight computers, displays, radios, transponders and the like have greatly enhanced the cockpit environment. One thing I have found invaluable is John DeRosa's series of helpful tips on glider maintenance. (http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/) The "Aviation Electrical Best Practices" presentation shows the "right" way to go about wiring a cockpit. If you have any electrical skills, whether in industrial or home wiring, you will find the particular requirements for aviation are different. This guide steers you in the right direction. Thanks to "OHM" for these guides.
As to "rewire the rat's nest": I have never purchased a "new" glider, only a "used" one. In every case, there have been tubing and wiring issues and in each case I undertook to re-wire and re-tube everything I could get at. In every case, I have discovered something that was at least puzzling if not down-right scary. You don't have to be a wizard to discover problems and correct them. Just take it one thing at a time, get everything neat, and you will have a lot more fun come spring than if you don't.

Yes, I looked at 'OHM's' guides and will follow them. John deserves a medal for publishing this and his other 'How-to' guides.

Uli
'AS'

On Friday, November 27, 2020 at 11:39:43 AM UTC-8, AS wrote:
On Friday, November 27, 2020 at 11:01:36 AM UTC-5, Mark Mocho wrote:
I've rewired and/or replumbed my panel three or four times over the years as new equipment is added and old things are removed. Upgrading flight computers, displays, radios, transponders and the like have greatly enhanced the cockpit environment. One thing I have found invaluable is John DeRosa's series of helpful tips on glider maintenance. (http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/) The "Aviation Electrical Best Practices" presentation shows the "right" way to go about wiring a cockpit. If you have any electrical skills, whether in industrial or home wiring, you will find the particular requirements for aviation are different. This guide steers you in the right direction. Thanks to "OHM" for these guides.
As to "rewire the rat's nest": I have never purchased a "new" glider, only a "used" one. In every case, there have been tubing and wiring issues and in each case I undertook to re-wire and re-tube everything I could get at. In every case, I have discovered something that was at least puzzling if not down-right scary. You don't have to be a wizard to discover problems and correct them. Just take it one thing at a time, get everything neat, and you will have a lot more fun come spring than if you don't.
Yes, I looked at 'OHM's' guides and will follow them. John deserves a medal for publishing this and his other 'How-to' guides.

Uli
'AS'

You can check for a bad component by looking for a voltage drop at each component, with mike button depressed........switches, fuses, plugs should have zero voltage drop. Don’t forget to check for voltage drop in the ground wire also. I once solved a problem like yours when I found everything was returning to the battery through a single 20 gage wire!
JJ


everything

On Friday, November 27, 2020 at 11:01:36 AM UTC-5, Mark Mocho wrote:
I've rewired and/or replumbed my panel three or four times over the years as new equipment is added and old things are removed. Upgrading flight computers, displays, radios, transponders and the like have greatly enhanced the cockpit environment. One thing I have found invaluable is John DeRosa's series of helpful tips on glider maintenance. (http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/) The "Aviation Electrical Best Practices" presentation shows the "right" way to go about wiring a cockpit. If you have any electrical skills, whether in industrial or home wiring, you will find the particular requirements for aviation are different. This guide steers you in the right direction. Thanks to "OHM" for these guides.
As to "rewire the rat's nest": I have never purchased a "new" glider, only a "used" one. In every case, there have been tubing and wiring issues and in each case I undertook to re-wire and re-tube everything I could get at. In every case, I have discovered something that was at least puzzling if not down-right scary. You don't have to be a wizard to discover problems and correct them. Just take it one thing at a time, get everything neat, and you will have a lot more fun come spring than if you don't.

Yes, I have been using his advice for a while now. Good stuff. I have 9 AH LA batteries and have always tested them this time of year by putting a 10 ohm 25 watt resistor across the output and taken voltage readings each hour down to 9 VDC or so. If the battery doesn't go 4-5 hours, I replace it. So how does one "check" a LiPo? Anyone done it?

As a side note, I was informed in the owner's literature never to put two of their LiPo's in parallel, as you can with the LA type. Read the manual if you have any parallel circuits in your ship before deploying in this manner.

On Wed, 02 Dec 2020 22:19:51 -0800, Jay Campbell wrote:

On Friday, November 27, 2020 at 11:01:36 AM UTC-5, Mark Mocho wrote:
I've rewired and/or replumbed my panel three or four times over the
years as new equipment is added and old things are removed. Upgrading
flight computers, displays, radios, transponders and the like have
greatly enhanced the cockpit environment. One thing I have found
invaluable is John DeRosa's series of helpful tips on glider
maintenance. (http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/) The
"Aviation Electrical Best Practices" presentation shows the "right" way
to go about wiring a cockpit. If you have any electrical skills,
whether in industrial or home wiring, you will find the particular
requirements for aviation are different. This guide steers you in the
right direction. Thanks to "OHM" for these guides.
As to "rewire the rat's nest": I have never purchased a "new" glider,
only a "used" one. In every case, there have been tubing and wiring
issues and in each case I undertook to re-wire and re-tube everything
I could get at. In every case, I have discovered something that was
at least puzzling if not down-right scary. You don't have to be a
wizard to discover problems and correct them. Just take it one thing
at a time, get everything neat, and you will have a lot more fun come
spring than if you don't.

Yes, I have been using his advice for a while now. Good stuff. I have
9 AH LA batteries and have always tested them this time of year by
putting a 10 ohm 25 watt resistor across the output and taken voltage
readings each hour down to 9 VDC or so. If the battery doesn't go 4-5
hours, I replace it. So how does one "check" a LiPo? Anyone done it?

As a side note, I was informed in the owner's literature never to put
two of their LiPo's in parallel, as you can with the LA type. Read the
manual if you have any parallel circuits in your ship before deploying
in this manner.

I use an old Pro-Peak Prodigy II to cycle and measure my battery capacity
each year. I sling 7.2AH SLAs once they drop below 5 Ah capacity but of
course ymmv.

The Pro-Peak Prodigy II handles multiple battery chemistries (SLA, NiCd,
NiMH, LiPo) and can discharge and recharge any of them. Check out your
local RC model shop or website and you'll find similar systems for
reasonable prices. Mine self-limits to 400mA discharge and charges at a
similar rate and can be run off a battery or a mains adapter: the
electric RC guys take their chargers to the flying field and charge
models from their car battery.



--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On 12/3/2020 8:31 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Wed, 02 Dec 2020 22:19:51 -0800, Jay Campbell wrote:

On Friday, November 27, 2020 at 11:01:36 AM UTC-5, Mark Mocho wrote:
I've rewired and/or replumbed my panel three or four times over the
years as new equipment is added and old things are removed. Upgrading
flight computers, displays, radios, transponders and the like have
greatly enhanced the cockpit environment. One thing I have found
invaluable is John DeRosa's series of helpful tips on glider
maintenance. (http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/) The
"Aviation Electrical Best Practices" presentation shows the "right" way
to go about wiring a cockpit. If you have any electrical skills,
whether in industrial or home wiring, you will find the particular
requirements for aviation are different. This guide steers you in the
right direction. Thanks to "OHM" for these guides.
As to "rewire the rat's nest": I have never purchased a "new" glider,
only a "used" one. In every case, there have been tubing and wiring
issues and in each case I undertook to re-wire and re-tube everything
I could get at. In every case, I have discovered something that was
at least puzzling if not down-right scary. You don't have to be a
wizard to discover problems and correct them. Just take it one thing
at a time, get everything neat, and you will have a lot more fun come
spring than if you don't.

Yes, I have been using his advice for a while now. Good stuff. I have
9 AH LA batteries and have always tested them this time of year by
putting a 10 ohm 25 watt resistor across the output and taken voltage
readings each hour down to 9 VDC or so. If the battery doesn't go 4-5
hours, I replace it. So how does one "check" a LiPo? Anyone done it?

As a side note, I was informed in the owner's literature never to put
two of their LiPo's in parallel, as you can with the LA type. Read the
manual if you have any parallel circuits in your ship before deploying
in this manner.

I use an old Pro-Peak Prodigy II to cycle and measure my battery capacity
each year. I sling 7.2AH SLAs once they drop below 5 Ah capacity but of
course ymmv.

The Pro-Peak Prodigy II handles multiple battery chemistries (SLA, NiCd,
NiMH, LiPo) and can discharge and recharge any of them. Check out your
local RC model shop or website and you'll find similar systems for
reasonable prices. Mine self-limits to 400mA discharge and charges at a
similar rate and can be run off a battery or a mains adapter: the
electric RC guys take their chargers to the flying field and charge
models from their car battery.


I followed others' recommendations and use the iMax B6
charger/discharger. Capable and cheap. But a test with a suitable
resistor, voltmeter and clock is also fine. I wouldn't discharge a
lead-acid battery down to 9V, that is damaging to its longevity. I'd
stop at 10.5V or 11V. Do that when the battery is new and you'll have a
baseline to compare to when the battery is older. For a lithium battery
you can do a similar test, just expect that the voltage will decline
much more gradually for most of the discharge, and then fall rapidly as
the battery nears exhaustion. There is very little additional capacity
below 11.5V or so. The built-in protection circuit may shut it down
between measurements if the voltage falls far enough. That's OK. Just
recharge it to turn it back on.

Jay Campbell wrote on 12/2/2020 10:19 PM:
On Friday, November 27, 2020 at 11:01:36 AM UTC-5, Mark Mocho wrote:
I've rewired and/or replumbed my panel three or four times over the years as new equipment is added and old things are removed. Upgrading flight computers, displays, radios, transponders and the like have greatly enhanced the cockpit environment. One thing I have found invaluable is John DeRosa's series of helpful tips on glider maintenance. (http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/) The "Aviation Electrical Best Practices" presentation shows the "right" way to go about wiring a cockpit. If you have any electrical skills, whether in industrial or home wiring, you will find the particular requirements for aviation are different. This guide steers you in the right direction. Thanks to "OHM" for these guides.
As to "rewire the rat's nest": I have never purchased a "new" glider, only a "used" one. In every case, there have been tubing and wiring issues and in each case I undertook to re-wire and re-tube everything I could get at. In every case, I have discovered something that was at least puzzling if not down-right scary. You don't have to be a wizard to discover problems and correct them. Just take it one thing at a time, get everything neat, and you will have a lot more fun come spring than if you don't.

Yes, I have been using his advice for a while now. Good stuff. I have 9 AH LA batteries and have always tested them this time of year by putting a 10 ohm 25 watt resistor across the output and taken voltage readings each hour down to 9 VDC or so. If the battery doesn't go 4-5 hours, I replace it. So how does one "check" a LiPo? Anyone done it?

As a side note, I was informed in the owner's literature never to put two of their LiPo's in parallel, as you can with the LA type. Read the manual if you have any parallel circuits in your ship before deploying in this manner.

SLA battery capacity at low to moderate currents (like you are doing) is usually measured down
to 11.0 volts for a "100% discharge". Going lower than that causes unnecessary damage that
shortens the life of the batter.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1