Transponder installation article- Soaring Magazine

On Wednesday, December 23, 2020 at 8:49:56 PM UTC-5, John Johnson wrote:
On Wednesday, December 23, 2020 at 12:11:12 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
On 12/21/20 5:19 PM, John Johnson wrote:
Should I assume it is not legal in the US to use a TT21 with a TN72 for ADS-B out in an experimental glider? That combination is ok in Europe (I think) with the difference being the US wants 2x the xmit power for ADS-B (TT22 at 250W) vs the 125W output of the TT21. I would like to think that having otherwise compliant, lower power ADS-B out is better (and not illegal) than no ADS-B out in an aircraft that is legal without ADS-B.
Probably not a realistic hope - but it would save me the not trivial expense of upgrading my TT21 to a TT22.

JJ

I don't see why you couldn't use the TT21, but the price difference
between the TT22 and the TT21 is only $157. Why wouldn't you go for the
higher power and legality above 15,000'?

Rather than upgrade, why not sell the 21 and buy a 22?

--
Dan
5J
Dan, I suspect the cost to replace my TT21 with a TT22 is a lot more than $200 - probably closer to a $1000. Since I can legally use my TT21 for ADS-B out everywhere I fly (and I can always upgrade to a TT22 later for no additional cost penalty), I'm not sure what I gain. As near as I can tell, I'll essentially have the same ADS-B out visibility and be experimental glider legal everywhere I fly. I do appreciate the advice.
In the meantime, if anyone is looking for a used TT21, let me know and I'll consider your offer.
JJ
The 21 can be upgraded to a 22 by Mid Continent and then you can add the TN 72 as the ADS B out. Don't know today's price for the conversion, but when I did it a year ago, it was very reasonable.

On Thursday, December 24, 2020 at 7:01:44 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Wednesday, December 23, 2020 at 8:49:56 PM UTC-5, John Johnson wrote:
On Wednesday, December 23, 2020 at 12:11:12 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
On 12/21/20 5:19 PM, John Johnson wrote:
Should I assume it is not legal in the US to use a TT21 with a TN72 for ADS-B out in an experimental glider? That combination is ok in Europe (I think) with the difference being the US wants 2x the xmit power for ADS-B (TT22 at 250W) vs the 125W output of the TT21. I would like to think that having otherwise compliant, lower power ADS-B out is better (and not illegal) than no ADS-B out in an aircraft that is legal without ADS-B.
Probably not a realistic hope - but it would save me the not trivial expense of upgrading my TT21 to a TT22.

JJ

I don't see why you couldn't use the TT21, but the price difference
between the TT22 and the TT21 is only $157. Why wouldn't you go for the
higher power and legality above 15,000'?

Rather than upgrade, why not sell the 21 and buy a 22?

--
Dan
5J
Dan, I suspect the cost to replace my TT21 with a TT22 is a lot more than $200 - probably closer to a $1000. Since I can legally use my TT21 for ADS-B out everywhere I fly (and I can always upgrade to a TT22 later for no additional cost penalty), I'm not sure what I gain. As near as I can tell, I'll essentially have the same ADS-B out visibility and be experimental glider legal everywhere I fly. I do appreciate the advice.
In the meantime, if anyone is looking for a used TT21, let me know and I'll consider your offer.
JJ
The 21 can be upgraded to a 22 by Mid Continent and then you can add the TN 72 as the ADS B out. Don't know today's price for the conversion, but when I did it a year ago, it was very reasonable.


I believe the price is $900 TT21 to TN72

They will update the software in the TC20 & TT22/TT21 for free you pay the shipping then you could use the TT21 for a TABS installation.

http://www.craggyaero.com/transponder.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

Been following this thread, as my glider has a TT21, and not sure what else is connected to it (TN72 GPS?). If I understand correctly, with the TT21 I cannot fly in A, B, and C airspace, but okay to fly in the rest, correct?

Thanks,
Paul

On 12/24/20 11:07 AM, paul.fer....gmail.com wrote:
Been following this thread, as my glider has a TT21, and not sure what else is connected to it (TN72 GPS?). If I understand correctly, with the TT21 I cannot fly in A, B, and C airspace, but okay to fly in the rest, correct?

Thanks,
Paul



Not legal above 15K, but I've heard rumors it's been done.

On Thursday, December 24, 2020 at 10:07:36 AM UTC-8, paul.fer....gmail.com wrote:
Been following this thread, as my glider has a TT21, and not sure what else is connected to it (TN72 GPS?). If I understand correctly, with the TT21 I cannot fly in A, B, and C airspace, but okay to fly in the rest, correct?

Thanks,
Paul

Not only can't you fly IN those airspaces, you can't fly OVER them either, which may be the bigger limitation. Going back to Minden from the north the shortest distance may be over the Reno class C airspace, which only goes up to 8,400 ft. But you will need to be in compliance with class C airspace to even over-fly this airspace. The non-compliant aircraft will either have to get a waiver from ATC or fly 20 nm either east or west to avoid it altogether. Never mind that this might put you into conflict with air traffic flying in and out of Reno.

Tom

On 12/25/20 11:53 PM, 2G wrote:
On Thursday, December 24, 2020 at 10:07:36 AM UTC-8, paul.fer....gmail.com wrote:
Been following this thread, as my glider has a TT21, and not sure what else is connected to it (TN72 GPS?). If I understand correctly, with the TT21 I cannot fly in A, B, and C airspace, but okay to fly in the rest, correct?

Thanks,
Paul

Not only can't you fly IN those airspaces, you can't fly OVER them either, which may be the bigger limitation. Going back to Minden from the north the shortest distance may be over the Reno class C airspace, which only goes up to 8,400 ft. But you will need to be in compliance with class C airspace to even over-fly this airspace. The non-compliant aircraft will either have to get a waiver from ATC or fly 20 nm either east or west to avoid it altogether. Never mind that this might put you into conflict with air traffic flying in and out of Reno.

Tom



But aren't gliders exempt from the ADS-B rules? Or is a non-equipped
glider not allowed to fly over the top of the airspace?

I'm equipped, BTW.

--
Dan
5J

Dan Marotta wrote on 12/26/2020 8:17 AM:
On 12/25/20 11:53 PM, 2G wrote:
On Thursday, December 24, 2020 at 10:07:36 AM UTC-8, paul.fer....gmail.com wrote:
Been following this thread, as my glider has a TT21, and not sure what else is connected to
it (TN72 GPS?). If I understand correctly, with the TT21 I cannot fly in A, B, and C
airspace, but okay to fly in the rest, correct?

Thanks,
Paul

Not only can't you fly IN those airspaces, you can't fly OVER them either, which may be the
bigger limitation. Going back to Minden from the north the shortest distance may be over the
Reno class C airspace, which only goes up to 8,400 ft. But you will need to be in compliance
with class C airspace to even over-fly this airspace. The non-compliant aircraft will either
have to get a waiver from ATC or fly 20 nm either east or west to avoid it altogether. Never
mind that this might put you into conflict with air traffic flying in and out of Reno.

Tom



But aren't gliders exempt from the ADS-B rules?* Or is a non-equipped glider not allowed to fly
over the top of the airspace?

I'm equipped, BTW.

My understanding is gliders can fly over Class C airspace above 10,000' without a transponder,
so you could fly over Reno on the way home to Minden - just don't sink below 10,000'. Of
course, I think it's too risky to fly without transponder in the Minden/Reno area (mode C on my
glider), and if I had a TT21, I put in a TN72 with a TA50 antenna. The next glider will have a
TT22/TN72 combo.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Saturday, December 26, 2020 at 9:36:17 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dan Marotta wrote on 12/26/2020 8:17 AM:
On 12/25/20 11:53 PM, 2G wrote:
On Thursday, December 24, 2020 at 10:07:36 AM UTC-8, paul.fer....gmail..com wrote:
Been following this thread, as my glider has a TT21, and not sure what else is connected to
it (TN72 GPS?). If I understand correctly, with the TT21 I cannot fly in A, B, and C
airspace, but okay to fly in the rest, correct?

Thanks,
Paul

Not only can't you fly IN those airspaces, you can't fly OVER them either, which may be the
bigger limitation. Going back to Minden from the north the shortest distance may be over the
Reno class C airspace, which only goes up to 8,400 ft. But you will need to be in compliance
with class C airspace to even over-fly this airspace. The non-compliant aircraft will either
have to get a waiver from ATC or fly 20 nm either east or west to avoid it altogether. Never
mind that this might put you into conflict with air traffic flying in and out of Reno.

Tom



But aren't gliders exempt from the ADS-B rules? Or is a non-equipped glider not allowed to fly
over the top of the airspace?

I'm equipped, BTW.
My understanding is gliders can fly over Class C airspace above 10,000' without a transponder,
so you could fly over Reno on the way home to Minden - just don't sink below 10,000'. Of
course, I think it's too risky to fly without transponder in the Minden/Reno area (mode C on my
glider), and if I had a TT21, I put in a TN72 with a TA50 antenna. The next glider will have a
TT22/TN72 combo.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

The governing regulation is 91.225:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.225
You can overfly class B and C airspace if you are at 10,500 and above (not 10,000) - below that you will need a transponder equipped with ADS-B out. This is further explained in:
http://ourdigitalmags.com/publicatio...er&v er=html5

This is the relevant part of 91.225:

(d) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the following airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that meets the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section:

(1) Class B and Class C airspace areas;

(2) Except as provided for in paragraph (e) of this section, within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 to this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;

(3) Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL;

(4) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and

(5) Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.

(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted -

(1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and

(2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.

Tom

I've got full ADS-B in all of my aircraft so no worries for me.

On 12/26/20 10:36 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dan Marotta wrote on 12/26/2020 8:17 AM:
On 12/25/20 11:53 PM, 2G wrote:
On Thursday, December 24, 2020 at 10:07:36 AM UTC-8,
paul.fer....gmail.com wrote:
Been following this thread, as my glider has a TT21, and not sure
what else is connected to it (TN72 GPS?). If I understand correctly,
with the TT21 I cannot fly in A, B, and C airspace, but okay to fly
in the rest, correct?

Thanks,
Paul

Not only can't you fly IN those airspaces, you can't fly OVER them
either, which may be the bigger limitation. Going back to Minden from
the north the shortest distance may be over the Reno class C
airspace, which only goes up to 8,400 ft. But you will need to be in
compliance with class C airspace to even over-fly this airspace. The
non-compliant aircraft will either have to get a waiver from ATC or
fly 20 nm either east or west to avoid it altogether. Never mind that
this might put you into conflict with air traffic flying in and out
of Reno.

Tom



But aren't gliders exempt from the ADS-B rules?Â* Or is a non-equipped
glider not allowed to fly over the top of the airspace?

I'm equipped, BTW.

My understanding is gliders can fly over Class C airspace above 10,000'
without a transponder, so you could fly over Reno on the way home to
Minden - just don't sink below 10,000'. Of course, I think it's too
risky to fly without transponder in the Minden/Reno area (mode C on my
glider), and if I had a TT21, I put in a TN72 with a TA50 antenna. The
next glider will have a TT22/TN72 combo.



--
Dan
5J